16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Need a recipe for some 7/8 target loads...
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:19 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

"Overshot cards on top of the shot are the way to go."

For the life of me, I've never been able to figure out why some archaic ideas have a longer lifespan than the wisdom and knowledge of the folks who have disproved them long ago. The idea that overshot card wads improve fold crimp loads is one of them. Please keep in mind that if overshot card wads were beneficial to fold crimped loads, they'd have continually been used in all the best competition grade ammo for low these many decades. We don't see them being used for a good reason. They don't help a thing. If fact, thay are an obstruction.

Overshot card wads were eliminated for use with folded crimps long before WWII. It was found that the crimp folds nestle into the top of the shot column w/o any problems. The pellets open those folds very evenly--better than a card wad can, becuse the pellets push on the entire bottom surface of the folds instead of just the bottom of the fold points like a card wad does. There is nothing to on top of the shot to bend, tip, or shift. Once past the hull mouth, the top of the shot column evens out on the way up the barrel. There is nothing on top restricting the flow of the pellets in the column on their way through the choke section and out of the barrel. So patterns are more even and more predictable. This was all figured out by the expert ballisticians who worked for the ammo companies long before any of us were born .

Of course, anyone is entitled to use whatever filler wads or material they want, and can put it wherever they wish. It's a free country last time I looked. However, bucking the wisdom, the research, and hard won knowledge of the professionals who put this matter to rest long before any of us were born makes no sense at all to me. Just saying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
britgun
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:27 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 1043
Location: Bozeman, MT

Its hard to see how this wafer thin weenie 20ga card could alter pattern dynamics much, but maybe it does.... they seem to break clays as good as any other reloads that I build without them, as long as I am shooting OK that particular day. As for crimping, the card really does help to make a much better crimp for me in these old WIN compression formed hulls in the old Lee Load-All. Huge difference. Just my experience.... thanks for the input....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
spr310
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:14 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1975

i don't use overshot cards on fold crimps but don't see how they would impact a fold crimped load any more then a roll crimped loads. I do have many roll crimped loads and all I see is that the overshot cards flies a few feet and drops to the ground. I don't see any lousy patterns caused by these cards. Why would they make a difference on folded loads? If they help your crimps use them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:30 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

Simple. The difference is in the way the two different types of crimps open. Folded crimps are pushed open from the center out by the shot. The most consistant ballistics and patterns develop when the crimp folds open smoothly and evenly with a predictable and consistant amount of resistence. A card wad may or may not tip to one side or the other or unevenly bend as it is pushed through the folds. This could cause one side of the crimp to open before the other. This can skew the process and the results. It might not happen that often, but it could happen often enough to cause a miss or a lost game bird.

Rolled crimps require a card wad. There is no way to get around it. However, the card wad is retained and supported around it's rim by the rolled crimp. The shot tends to bulge the center of the over shot card wad out first which helps form the card wad into a cup. The cupped card wad leaves the hull mouth before the rest of the crimp is opened by the shot and the filler wads. The resistance is also even and predictable, so ballistics are also fairly consistant. The cupped card wad remains evenly trapped on top of the shot column as it exits the bore and then drifts away. There may be a very slight amount of pattern degradation but it is far less than what happens when a fold crimp does not open evenly.

Anyway. I've been using undershot filler wads long enough to know they can't and don't interfer with a thing. They help me get perfect folded crimps every time and, they can never cost me a target or a bird I deserve. That is good enough for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DanLee
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:00 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 601
Location: Virginia

I'm in awe at 16GG's erudition. I'd take every word as gospel, but a little voice nags at me: "Are his beliefs a result of actual tests, or just an example of non-Aristotelian logic?" In other words, has he accounted for every variable he mentions in his case against overshot cards? The crimp opens in the chamber and there is another 24 or 30 inches of barrel for the shot column and the overshot card to sort themselves out, not to mention the choke constriction. Where's the accounting for this?

I can only report my own empiric experience with overshot cards, which is that they have no effect on the patterns I've tested or my skeet scores. I'll keep using overshot cards until someone shows me I'm wrong.

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spr310
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:31 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1975

Dan
By the time you have thought about what effect the overshot card had on the pattern the shot has already reached the target.
I'm tempted to load up five of each, five roll crimped, five wwith overshot cards fold crimped and five without. Then check the patterns to see which is the difference in patterns.
i just don't think it will show much difference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
britgun
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:46 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 1043
Location: Bozeman, MT

spr310 wrote:
Dan
By the time you have thought about what effect the overshot card had on the pattern the shot has already reached the target.
I'm tempted to load up five of each, five roll crimped, five wwith overshot cards fold crimped and five without. Then check the patterns to see which is the difference in patterns.
i just don't think it will show much difference.


Please do your test, I would be very interested in the results... I am only leaning on my own experience, as are some others who've commented here: I've never missed a bird or a clay due to a teeny tiny OSC.... operator error is what causes a miss for me (low and behind perhaps?) Its been the same with the OSC handloads as its been with those without the evil, wafer thin, eentsy weentsy paper discs....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:55 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

I guess some folks just can't accept the idea of progress. All any of you will be doing is retesting everything done long ago by the experts at the various ammo company ballistics labs and elsewhere. But first you'll need to spend a gazillion bucks for all the required lab, video, and other related equipment. Better also figure on a couple of tons of shot, several hundred pounds of powder, all the other various componants, and whatever else you might need, because I doubt 5 loads of each is gonna cover it (just a hunch there on my part). Then you a can go forth and knock yourselves out recreating all the testing they have already done over all that time. Let us know how it all turns out. Very Happy

PS, As smart as he probably was, I doubt Aristotle ever had a glimmer of an idea about all this. Maybe bows, arrows and ballistas, but not shotguns. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:54 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT

I have never seen a overshot card wad actually mess up a shot pattern, maybe if you shot thousands of patterns you would see a trend, any degradation is probably minor.

After saying that,

I agree with those that think a card wad shouldn't be used in a fold crimp shotshell load because, with a properly thought out load you shouldn't need one. Or learn to use the adjustments on the reloader. Just because there is loading data for the components you have chosen, doesn't mean you have a particularly great load.

_________________
Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spr310
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:05 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1975

Mark I agree with you. The only time I use an overshot card is in my 12 gauge buffered loads and that only a 28 gauge card to keep the buffer in.
After saying that though if a person uses and overshot card so be it. I have went through my books and the only reference I have found is that an overshot card is not needed, only one book went as far as to say it may effect the pattern. But in that same book he also states that in the field for birds you should not use any shot size smaller then 7 1/2. Any size smaller will not kill the birds and will leave many wounded birds in the field. That being said should I start ranting on the people in this forum that profess to using small shot to hunt pheasants?
I will say one of the reasons I said I would test some loads is because I knew 16 gauge guy would have to pipe in. That's terrible isn't it? Nobody ever accused me of being a nice person though. Even though I do not want to waste my time loading some 16 gauge hulls right now I am going to do it. I will be testing them tomorrow. It's what you do when you've got time on your hands.

George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike campbell
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:29 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 1338

Rolling Eyes


Last edited by mike campbell on Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:42 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

Mike, I think the problem here is that both of us have longer than useful memories.Laughing We're both familiar with Polywad inserts. Yup, they are effective. And yes, that post is there to keep 'em from tipping. Works too.

I also remember reading a lot of reports on the subject so long ago now that I can't remember just where or when it was. From the time I could first read, I used to devour any and all rod and gun mags I could get my grubby but innocent little paws on. Every barber shop, doctor's office waiting room, news stand, or pharmacy rag rack was loaded with them, This was of course, long before rod and gun mags became politically incorrect (sigh Rolling Eyes ). I vaguely remember seeing this one from Remington in some rod and gun magazine from back in the '60s or '70s (or even older).

Be that as it may, all I've done is pass on some time honored advice based on the findings of a bunch of very qualified but probably long dead experts (of which I'm not one dead or alive Laughing ). Those with the sense to heed that advice will. Those that won't.... well,... and so it goes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:01 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT

Instead of guessing, put a true .028 overshot card in a fold crimp shell and then pattern with and without the card. Will there be some degradation? Maybe, maybe not but whatever degradation there is, will be less than 5%. It will not blow a hole in the pattern.

The whole reason the Polywad Spred 'R' works is because of the stem. Cut the stem off and the results will not be anywhere near as good as it is with the stem.

As much as I look at roll crimps as a useless waste of time, you can get some very excellent patterns with those loads and they all have overshot cards in them.

The Remington ads were meant to sell the new ammunition.

_________________
Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike campbell
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:41 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 1338

Rolling Eyes


Last edited by mike campbell on Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spr310
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:43 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1975

Well 16 gaugeguy. I knocked myself out. Out of 15 shells I had one failure to fire. So only 14 tests
Federal hull, 21.5 grains Unique,SG-16 wad, 7/8oz #7 shot, Fed209A primer, The ftf was because I used a hull previously loaded with Noble primer, Primer fell out while shooting. Lucky it must have fallen out the bottom instead of going into the action of the 11-48. My fault because I thought I had thrown all the hulls in the trash that I used the noble primer in. Missed one. I only use them in the Fed hulls so all the rest of the Fed hulls will go in the trash. The sad part is that the stupid noble primers will not even fit in my 209 training pistol.
Anyway back to the patterns. The hulls loaded and fold crimped with and without the OS card showed no difference. that I could notice. The difference I noted was a larger pattern with the roll crimped hulls. I had the polychoke set at the position marked 5 which would be improved modified. Shot at 25 yards so as to try and get the whole pattern on my steel plates. Which it did.
I know it really does not mean much, but if it gets your goat 16gaugeguy it was worth it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 2 of 3
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09