16ga.com ~ View topic - Ithaca model 37 late manufacture barrels.

Last month, I bought one of the last of the 16 ga. model 37 guns made in NY. It has a ribbed 26" barrel with choke tubes. Compared to my 1969 era 16 ga. model 37, the new gun is marginally heavier. Most of the extra weight is in the barrel.

Compared to the older hammer forged barrels, the new machined tube ones have heavier walls all the way to the muzzle. The 26" model feels and swings almost exactly like the 28" inch one. It swings and tracks beatifully for target work. However, I bought the shorter gun in hopes of getting a bit quicker handling gun with the weight distributed more between the hands for upland work on quick flushing birds. For this, it could be better. So back to the drawing board it was so to speak.

I next ordered a 24" barrel with rib and chokes from the folks at upper Sandusky. They sent one of the last ones they had from the existing stock they acquired as part of the company purchase. When it came, I found that it would not fit on my guns that well. It also had several minor flaws that needed a bit of attention. So back it went for service.

I had the chance to speak with Craig Marshall, the head honcho about the barrel, his take on the 37, and its future with his firm. I found Craig to be very interested in my input. He was very concerned that my barrel did not come up to snuff. He asked me to detail the flaws and also to suggest any ideas I had about improving the barrel and the gun. So, given the opportunity to pontificate a bit, I did. Laughing

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Well, a month went by, and yesterday, the barrel came. I mean to tell you, it is perfect as perfect can be. These folks polished both the bore and chamber walls to a beautiful smooth finish. I had pointed out the less than adequate polishing that had been done by the former vender. These new folks got it dead right. There should be little to no plastic wad build up or sticky extraction from steel rimmed ammo with this barrel. Further, the exterior was redone to an even, pleasing blue that matches the existing guns nicely. Most importantly, the barrel now fits onto both my receivers perfectly without any sweat or swearing, and the rib lines straight up with the receivers. There had been a problem with the barrel hanger that caused the barrel to misalign with the receiver. Now it was exactly right.

The best news is that the slightly shorter 24" barrel is not only lighter than the 26" one, it also shifts the weight of the gun back between my hands so it swings around its central balance point like a top and is very quick and precise to the shoulder. I close my eyes and I could swear it feels like a nicely balanced double gun. The new 24" barrel also weighs almost exactly what my 1969 28" barrel weighs, so the over all weight of the gun has not been increased. Its like having my cake and eating it too.

Based on my experience with the New Ithaca Gun company, I'd say we have not seen the best yet. I am betting they will refine the 37 into a world class pump gun as it rightfully deserves to be. I'd also suggest one of these dandy little 24" tubes for anyone who wants to transform his existing post 885000 model 37 16 into a truely fine handling upland gun. Give them a call. They will fix you up right well. 16GG.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

No doubt, those 24" barrels will transform your hearing, as well-did he throw in a case of ear plugs with the deal? If not, he 'shoulda.

Ever shoot one of those barrels at night? With all the fire coming out the end of the tube, I wonder how much precious velocity is lost in the useless fireworks show. NOT what you need for late season pheasant hunting, thats for sure.

Save your money, until you can turn up a proper Ultra feather light 37, with the alloy receiver. There was one at the past weapons collectors show in St. Paul in 16, I sure don't need two, however. The 26 inch barrel, with tubes is about right for these guns, but, I think a few were 28 inch. Just sweet handling right out of the box, no extra weight anywhere on them. 24 inch tubes are not the hot ticket, for a variety of reasons.

Best,
Ted

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total*

Well, then there is that...whatever that is. Rolling Eyes

Unfortunately, the aluminum framed Ultra Featherlight 16 ga guns are fairly rare. Not everyone has one. They were discontinued. There is a reason too. They do not hold up well to continued or extensive use. The gun was never designed to have an alloy receiver. The design requires steel and always has.

The bolt of the 37 Ultra Featherlight locks up into a recess in the aluminum receiver. There is no steel barrel extention to accept the bolt lug like modern alloy framed pump guns have. There is no steel insert in the receiver like modern alloy framed O/U guns have to reinforce the alloy against the unevenly matched surface hardness of aluminum to steel. The bolt lug impinges directly on aluminum each time the gun is fired and wears against aluminum as it engages and disengages. Aluminum does not have the best wear characteristics under these conditions, nor does it handle what amounts to hammer blows well either. its too soft. Even the toughest aluminum alloy will not take the additional stresses the design requires of it.

Sorry, that is poor engineering in my opinion. I trust steel to steel, just like John Browning designed it to be. The Ultra Featherlight might hold up for occasional light duty use, but not for continual use. I would not trust it to take a steady diet of full pressure loads either.

The Steel framed model 37 16 ga guns are light enough to begin with. There are better ways to lighten the gun other than jeapardizing its integrity by substituting an aluminum alloy receiver for the required steel to cut a few ounces. My steel framed guns, either one weighs just under 6-1/2 pounds with the 24" tube in place. That is plenty light enough in my book.

I've also suggested that the new company look at ways to swamp their longer barrels to remove weight from the middle of the span while still leaving enough steel at the chamber and out at the muzzle so they can still be threaded for choke tubes. Most modern integral choked barrels now use exactly this design. They are called slim line or light contour or some other corporate name. the old timers just called it swamping. It still works as well now as it did several centuries ago.

Finally, most modern shotgun powders burn fairly well inside 21 inches of length under normal conditions and at normal, modern pressures. Only very slow powders at low pressures give any burn problems. As far as muzzle flash at night, I don't do much wingshooting then. most F&W depts frown on it. Laughing

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The Model 37 is one tough modern design. It can repeatedly take full pressure loads as well as any modern hinge gun, better in fact, if its receiver is made of good steel. The 24" barrel gives the same overall gun length and nearly the same balance and feel as a 28" O/U or SxS. For those of us with steel framed guns, it does the job. At least, it does for me, thanks.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

I'd be willing to bet that both of us don't have enough years left in the field to worry the least about an imagined (haven't read about the lawsuit just yet) problem like that.

Now then, crono a load with the 24 inch earblaster against the original, and we'll have something to discus.
Best,
Ted

Why? Are you thinking of sueing someone? Laughing

The aluminum gun was dropped. It was never popular. They are scarce. Why pine after one when a steel framed gun will do, and do it better anyway. If you like yours, then use it in good health. I personally don't care for the idea, but that's just the engineer in me. Most folks who have a steel framed 37 and use it regularly are more than happy with it. Its a good, well designed, lighter than average gun as it is if the barrel weight can be kept to an acceptable level.

Sure, there is bound to be some loss of velocity with a shorter barrel. However, muzzle velocities over 1275 fps can still be maintained easily enough for average 16 ga shot loads. It might take a bit of load developement, but most 16 ga folks can reload well enough.

I also seriously doubt the bird would be any deader if hit with a load of properly sized shot out to 40 yards at these initial speeds. Round shot does not hold onto high velocities long enough to matter much past 35 yards anyway. Bigger shot is required, and not more velocity to hit harder. Bore size and not length is the most important dimension here. The 16 handles #5 and #4 shot well enough for upland work on pheasant and big grouse. So, the shorter barrel is one solution, a lighter contoured one is another. They both work. Neither would be falling off my steel framed gun anytime soon either Wink

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Boy this is painful to admit Rolling Eyes

but I must agree with BOTH terrible Ted AND 16GG. One of the sweetest quail killin' guns I've ever carried was a 20g. Ultrafeatherlite English. It was made in the early 90's and had a 25" brl. Couldn't seem to miss birds or clays until about the 23rd low gun skeet target when my flinch kicked in Confused

As usual, like an idiot, it's long gone Embarassed

Well, at least you sold it before the steel bolt broke the aluminum receiver and the 25" ( I hope you are not too deaf from that terrible muzzle blast) barrel fell off. Laughing

Err..you weren't hunting these quail at night too were you Rev? If so, did the muzzle flash blind you?Geez, you should know better. Wink

Besides, it serves you right for even touching a 20. Thats heresy. I think the big guy is warming up a bolt with your name on it. Rolling Eyes

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Most folks that have an aluminum framed Ithaca 37, Remington model 31, aluminum framed Manufrance LaSalle pump (sold by Marlin as a Premier) or any of the millions who use a Mossberg 500, including police and military, don't worry about an aluminum receiver.

Why? Because better engineers figured out how to make it work, long term. Even with heavy loads.

If losing velocity out of carefully developed handloads, or favorite factory loads is your thing, have at it. No, I don't hunt at night, but, the engineer in me knows that 12 inches of flash out the end of a barrel means that all of the powder isn't doing the job it was intended, to say nothing of what it is doing to ears. Most folks shoot passing targets a little better with a longer barrel than they do with a shorter one-and a shorter barrel will definately make a gun feel "whippy". The best way to lose weight from a gun design is from the area between the hands, as the guns balance isn't disturbed. If one removes weight from the barrel, the same amount of weight should be removed from the buttstock to maintain critical balance.

I noticed the engineer in you said nothing about that.

You have an idea to resolve a problem, but I respectfully submit that a better idea exists. I will admit it is a limited quantity idea, but that will make the find so much sweeter when you finally find it.

Use those earplugs until then.

Best,
Ted

Well sir, the bolts on all modern aluminum framed pump guns lock up in an integral steel barrel extention. The stress from the bolt thrust upon firing the gun never affects the frame. Some have steel inserts in the races most suseptable to wear. Others use replaceable plastic or nylon buffers. Every aluminum alloy framed gun that locked up on the frame has been discontinued for many years. Too many of these guns wore out too soon or failed during use.

The prevelant idea of those times was that the shell head would swell upon firing and grab the sides of the chamber, thereby lessening the bolt thrust upon the alloy frame. Plastic ammo and the low brass on some shells made this idea passe. It was never that effective either. Wax build up in the chamber from paper cases would cause problems.

As for balance, most pumps and autos that have a 26-30" barrel with choke tubes also have a decided forward balance point. This is due not only to the heavier barrel but also to the frame length behind the bolt and ahead of the grip and trigger. This is one of the features that has made these guns so effective for target shooting. no one will argue that guns like the Remington 1100 or the Beretta Ultima are not excellent on the clays courses and trap or skeet fields. The 1100 dominated skeet for years. however, these guns have never been the first choice of the typical upland hunter.

A shorter barrel puts the balance point on an auto or pump back more between the hands. It is the idea Remington, Browning, and even Ithaca is using in their upland series of auto and pump guns. These guns have been decent sellers for a couple of decades now. the folks who buy and use them for the right conditions they are meant for swear by them. Remington uses a 23" barrel. Its frame is longer than the Model 37's. So Ithaca offers a 24" barrel to balance its own guns. Plus, the model 37 field guns never were heavily stocked. They typically had lighter than standard stocks to begin with, especially in the 12 and 16 ga guns.

I got to shoot the gun yesterday. It is decidedly quicker to the mark. And yes, it passes crossing shots sooner than a longer barreled gun. Timing is disrupted at first. However, by the time I shot my second 25, I was crushing everything between stations 3 to 6. I was able to adjust to the gun's new feel. It handles almost exactly like my 26" hinge guns. No it is not as smooth as a 28 or 30" inch hinge gun or a longer barreled pump, but decidedly quicker to the shoulder. It will shine in the thickets on grouse and for those surprise pheasants that erupt at your feet so frequently in heavy, rank cover. Same for quail. The shorter ranges typical for this type of cover negate the idea of velocity loss. It won't really matter. I won't be pass shooting ducks or geese with this short barreled gun.

Would I use the 24" tube for pass shooting dove? No. I can use the original 28" barrel for that. The nice thing is I now have my choice of barrels. Its like having two different guns. I now have another tool in the box. Its up to me to master its use and choose the right tool for the job. I think I can manage that. Wink

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

I suppose it bears mentioning at this point that I would never consider using standard SAAMI spec cartridges in either of my 16 gauge guns. I started feeding my restocked Tobin the 2 1/2 inch Eley VIP CIP spec loads a few years back (the Tobin is an early 20th century double) and was so happy with how birds fell from the sky, that I just use them in the Ithaca as well. Both guns are rather light, and they don't need a pounding from standard spec ammunition any more than I do.
Why folks feel they have to try to make a 16 into a 12, with 1 1/8 oz high pressure loads is something I will never understand. Further, I'm fairly certain I don't have to worry too much about wearing out my Ultralightweight anytime soon with these loads, which are about 700 BAR. I haven't found the fiber wads to be real pattern friendly with the full choke in, but, the modified and IC choke tubes love these loads-which, is just what I need for what I hunt.
Choke tubes, aluminum receiver light weight, vent rib, 16 gauge that carries more like a 28 than a 20-where are those model 12 guys now?
Oh, I forgot-waxing 'em, waiting for "someday" when they sell 'em. See you in the field.
Best,
Ted

In consideration of the gun, that is a wise choice of ammo Ted. I do use 1-1/8 ounce loads in my modern 16 gauge guns. On occasion, I'll even load up a 1-1/4 ounce load. Some pheasants on some days require the extra range and/or hitting power of bigger shot. I can do it with a modern 16 very well and do not have to lug the weight of a modern 12. Its why I've picked the 16 as my go to upland gun instead of a modern 20.

Its also why I shy away from older 16 ga guns. They are graceful, some are beautiful, many have a romantic heritage behind them. However, when I go out to kill game, I focus on the effectiveness of the ammo first, then look for the lightest, easiest carrying gun that will shoot it both safely and comfortably.

For most pheasants, a one ounce load of # 6 at 1275-1300 FPS will drop them hard. If the conditions warrent, I'll follow up with 1-1/8 ounces of #5 at the same speeds. If it takes more, then 1-1/4 ounces of #4 at 1275 fps will certainly do the trick. I've never seen the pheasant yet that could fly through a pattern of #4 and live more than a second of two. In short, I'm a pragmatist. I use what will do the job with a bit of added insurance. The modern 16 ga gun provides that in a package of decent weight and balance.