16ga.com ~ View topic - Comparing a 16 and 20 ga.Model 37 Ithaca.

A couple of Sundays ago, I spent the day at my gun club shooting trap and skeet with my friends and catching up on local news. I'd been on the road shooting at various ATA State shoots in New England for most of the month. The break was a welcome change from the intensity of competion. Now, I was just shooting for fun.

One of the new members had a 1960's era DXR Model 37 20 ga. with him. It was a near duplicate of my 16, so, naturally, when we spotted each other's guns, we had to compare them.

His was a tad lighter than mine. however, what really struck me is that Ithaca used the 20 ga. frame to build the 16 on. The outside demensions were exactly the same. We measured them with my old verier that I keep in my cleaning tackle box. I mean, the two frames were within a a thousandth or two of an inch in every demension. The only difference was the barrels. However, his barrel's chamber area was about the same OD as mine. the stocks could have been swapped. Only the magazine tube was a bit smaller on his gun. Even the mag cap was about the same size.

So now I know why the 37 16 ga. is so nice and light. It is actually built on a slightly modified 20 ga frame. Too bad Remington never picked up on this practical solution to the problem of building 16 ga guns nice and light. A small frame 870 or 1100 would be a delight to hunt with. I can just sense it.

What would you say the weight difference was? I never chased hard after a 16 ga 37 because I figured it would be lots (6 -8 ozs) heavier than the 20 ga I own so I wouldn't use it. Might have to reconsider that.

Steel frame to steel frame, and ribbed barrel to ribbed barrel, its only a few ounces at most and hardly noticable. It's about the same as the difference between a 20 and a 16 ga Citori.

The practical ballistic advantage the 16 offers over the 20 is well worth that few ounces in my opinion. The 16 is a far more versitile gun than the 20, because you can do with it anything the 20 can and much more on the higher end.

Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

16gg:
if my memory is correct, rem built the 1100 and 870 20ga on a LW frame in the 70's, which would have been between a full-sized 12 and the modern LT 20ga frames now offered. they HAD a platform for a 16 on 16 but let it blow on by them.

The lightweight frame of the late '60's and early '70's was an alloy frame with steel parts inside. It was machined to the same demensional specs as the 12 gauge action. There was a problem with the carrier rails inside the action wearing out prematurely.

I'm not aware that any 16 ga guns were ever made on this frame. I was led to believe only 20 ga. guns were. The LT-870/1100 was desinged to correct the failure of the alloy light weight frame and to produce a 20 ga gun on its own frame size. This same frame was finally used to make 28 and .410 guns. I'm still hoping Remington can modify it to make a 16. This frame is actually bigger than the Ithaca 37 frame, so I don't see why it can't be.

Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 145 Location: minnesota

16gg:
are you SURE the LW frame was a full sized frame? you are probably right, i haven't looked at one for a while. also,i never said the 16 was made on that frame. 16 1100's and 870's have always been made on the standard 12ga frame.
by the way, rem will never make a 16 on the LT frame, what you see is what you get. they have already discontinued the express model, so wingmaster and 1100 are soon to follow.

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 5

Ill add a few observations on frame sizes and weights. I picked up an Ithaca factory straight stock on Ebay for my 20ga M-37. I was pretty disappointed in the really poor fit but thought with some reshaping and inletting I could make it work. Just before I started hacking on it, I noticed that 16was written under the recoil pad, and indeed it was a perfect fit on my 16ga. In the end I was thrilled with the error. The seller felt bad about the deal and found me one for my 20ga at a great price. The point is dont count on 20 and 16ga stocks being interchangeable because the frames are not the same size.

The width of the M37 receiver for all three gauges is about the same. You can check parts listings to be sure but I think the trigger groups interchange between all three if they are of similar vintage. The difference is in the height of the receiver. The 16ga is about 1/10 shorter than the 12ga and the 20ga about 1/10 shorter than the 16ga. It would probably be more accurate to say the 20 and 16ga frames are slightly modified 12 gauges.

I have an early 60s 20ga with a 26 plain barrel that weighs 6lb 2oz. I had a late 50s 16ga with 28 plain barrel that was 6lbs 1oz but my current 16 with 26 plain barrel tips the scales at 6lbs 5 oz. I think wood density is the big variable. The newer production vent rib choke tube barrels add about ½ pound.

While I am blathering on about gun weights you might as well know my 20ga English Ultra with 25 VR goes 4lbs 15oz. It has an aluminum trigger group. I think I read on this forum that the aluminum Ithaca Ultras will wear out pretty fast so I thought the best way to extend the life might be get another one to share the work load. I just acquired a new 16ga English Ultra that weighs 5lbs 15oz. Lets seeif I put the trigger group from the 20 into the 16 and find a plain barrel for it I can have a M37 16ga that weighs 5 ¼ lbs. Ouch!

This thread also caused me to dig my out Remington 1100 for a look. The steel receiver is marked 1100LW and it has a magnet stuck on it as Im writing this. It currently sports a stock from an 870LT so Im pretty sure it is a small frame. The standard frame 20 I weighed went 7 ¾ lbs and my 20LW with mahogany stock and forend is right on 6 ½. I hope there is something useful in all this.
Jim

Jim, I'm not at all up on pre- 885,000 Model 37 guns. However, the 20 and 16 I compared and measured are both Roto forged era guns. Their serial numbers are so close that they were probably made in the same year. There is no apparent difference in any overall dimension between these two, at least these two I meassured for lengh, width, and height. I can't say about earlier guns.

However, the model 37 is based on the Remington model 17 which was a 20 ga design. So thwe opposite of a modied 12 ga frame is true. These guns have been made for the better part of a century and have gone through numerous minor modifications and dimensional changes over the years. I'm not up on all of it. Practically speaking, it makes no real difference to me as long as the gun in my hands will reliablely shoot where I look and down the target be it bird or clay. My Model 37 16 does this to perfection for me. That is sufficient.

I would not sweat about wearing out your alloy framed guns if you follow common wisdom and avoid continual use of high pressure, and heavy shot charged loads. I would not use them for continual skeet shooting either. Recoil alone should prove punishing enough in either case to stop you from doing so. I'd also keep the bolt lug and roof cut free of grit or grime too. Under these guidelines, your guns should last you a lifetime and probably your heirs too.

I just can't shoot guns under 6-1/2 pounds or a bit. I also am prone to shoot a bunch of skeet rounds with any of my game guns. So I avoid alloy framed guns. Its purely a personal preference based on my shooting habits and prejudices and should not be taken as gospel by anyone. I also wear both belt and 'spenders, so that alone tells you how I am about guns. Laughing

As far as Remington is concerned, they have a nasty habit of arbitrarily changing and reusing different designations for their guns. Remember the .244-6MM debacle and the .280-7MM/06-7MM Express fiasco? They have referred to the steel framed LT-20 type frame as the 1100 lightweight as well as the 870 Lightweight at times. Why I do not know. however, they also made alloyed frame lightweight guns which did not hold up to the rigors of continual target use. So Remington stopped making them.

No one can say for sure what Remington will do regarding products and guns. they have never been either predictable or logical. Laughing

so its a crap shoot and anyone's guess.

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

The Rem Lt Wt 870 frame was steel and had the same dimensions of any Rem 870 20 gauge. What was Lt Wt was the stock of Mahogony and the barrel contour. I have a 870 20 gauge Lt Wt Magnum with 28 Full choke VR barrel. It weighs 6# 2oz and the frame is NOT Aluminum. -Dick

You are right Dick, none of the small framed 1100 or 870 guns are aluminum. The first of these guns post date the alloy framed guns by about 4 years.