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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Z 16 and Herters/cheddites |
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Posted:
Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:13 pm
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Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 567
Location: wheeling, wv
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After loading up some 3/4oz 20 ga loads, I decided to load up the Herters/cheddite 16 shells I had shot the other night with the following load:
Universal20.2 gr
cci 209
Z-16 wad
1200 fps @ 8100 psi
1 oz 7's(not 7 1/2,s)
Even with an ounce load a cherrio or overshot card was necessary to achieve any kind of decent crimp, without it , shot would just roll out the poor crimp.
I have never used the z16 wad before, but had a bag and thought I'd use them up. The other load I would use was 18.2 gr Green Dot with the Z16.
I rarely reload more than 7/8 oz and was surprised at the poor crimps from a 1 oz load. I was going to use the # 7's on grouse this fall.
Your thoughts? |
_________________ we salute you bird of thunder |
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Posted:
Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:20 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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I suggest you search the web for Baschieri & Pellagri wads. They manufacture the Z wads, and the site has a wealth of info about their products. Their wads are designed for use in any hull similar in size to the B&P hulls. They are perfectly suitable for reloading Cheddite hulls.
Essentially, B&P makes but one 16 ga wad. According to B&P, it is designed for 29 to 32 gram loads when used in a 70mm (2-3/4 inch) hull. One ounce equals 28.35 grams. This might help explain why you need filler wads for your one ounce loads.
I suggest using a .135" thick, 28 gauge nitro card wad placed in the bottom of the shot cup where it will not interfere with the crimp folds as they settle into the top of the shot column like they should. A nitro card wad has enough crush resistance to resist the forces of forming and setting the crimp. This allows the elasticity of the wad to work for you. Cheerios or any friable material like them do not always offer enough resistance and all too often end up being crushed before a good crimp can be formed. A nitro card filler wad also lends uniformity and repeatability to the process, which other less uniform fillers don't.
B&P also makes three 20 gauge Z wads. 20 ga Z wads are big enough in diameter to be successfully used to reload the narrower 16 gauge Remington RGL hulls. The smallest capacity 20 gauge Z wad is probably perfect for loading 3/4 ounce loads w/o any fillers. |
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Posted:
Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:52 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 328
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I have an acquantance who uses trail boss powder with the chedite and z16 wad. Says he gets great results since trail boss is a very bulky powder. |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:04 am
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Joined: 04 Mar 2014
Posts: 7
Location: Luxembourg
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Yesterday I made some cartridges with this wad (Z16) I put a 1 mm (0.04")
card in the shot cup. The crimp was Ok but slightly dished.
Next time i will use a thicker card. I used Vectan A1 powder for a 1 ounce load. |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:37 am
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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Two issues that can cause the problem with the load you are using.
I developed loads using the exact components, with 20, 21 & 22 grains of Universal. The load with 22 grains crimps the best, but you might not want that velocity of over 1300 FPS.
First be sure that you are actually dropping 1 oz. of shot, it needs to be weighed, as most bars drop light. This is one of the biggest issues, that no one thinks matters, but it leaves the wad column height too low.
Second, especially with new Cheddite hulls. You will probably have to adjust the depth of crimp. This load with the correct crimp setting will have a very slight dish. If the crimp cam and /or the crimp punch are not set correctly you will have the problems that you encountered with the crimp. Initial settings are the cam should be midway in its travel, which is the original factory setting and back the crimp punch up 2 turns. This will cause the crimp to be shallow or possibly flat with no shoulder at all. Now you can adjust the the punch down until you get nice shoulder and a depth of about .055" stop right there. You might have to adjust the cam but I doubt it.
I hope this helps.
The adjustments work with all MEC machines.
I have assumed that you have weighed the powder charge to confirm that you are actually dropping 20.2 grains. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:09 am
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Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 567
Location: wheeling, wv
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I do have an electronic scale and the powder drop is accurate. I dont know if I have ever checked the 1 oz bar--I rarely use it, but will check it out.
Thanks |
_________________ we salute you bird of thunder |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:08 pm
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Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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I have bored out all of my MEC bars to drop the proper amt of shot. I believe they are designed to drop the correct amt of chilled 9s, which will be the most dense shot charge normally loaded. Hard shot is less dense due to the antimony and the larger the shot the less dense it packs. My 3/4 & 7/8 oz bars are drilled out to drop those amts of hard 8s. My 1 oz bar is adjusted for hard 7.5s. In my hands a new 1 oz bar drops closer to 7/8s oz of hard 7.5s.
Regards
Jeff |
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Posted:
Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:05 am
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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Just an FYI and Please don't think I am one upping anyone.
MEC bars are made to drop the correct amount of pure lead ( not chilled ) #6 shot.
A bit archaic to say the least. It is the whole reason I went to the Multiscale bars. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:05 am
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I checked my 1 1/8 oz. bar a while back with some high-antimony, hard 7 shot and it was about 1/16 oz. light. I did then pick up a 1 3/16 oz. bar and the drops are pretty much right on at 1 1/8…maybe even a hair light, but close enough. Really have to check each bag/brand/type of shot and see what's going on. I wish MEC made a 1 1/16 oz. bar. I'm too invested in bars and bushings now to switch, but I can certainly see the merits of the adjustable bars. |
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Posted:
Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:26 pm
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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I know of a couple of guys that tapped a hole perpendicular to the shot cavity through the end of the bar, and threaded in a bolt. They reamed the cavity so it throws just a little bit heavy and use the bolt to adjust the weight.
It works!!! |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:56 pm
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Dogchaser37 wrote: |
I know of a couple of guys that tapped a hole perpendicular to the shot cavity through the end of the bar, and threaded in a bolt. They reamed the cavity so it throws just a little bit heavy and use the bolt to adjust the weight.
It works!!!
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That's a really neat idea. |
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Posted:
Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:17 pm
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Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT
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I thought so too......if I didn't have the Multiscale bars I would have tried that idea for sure.
The MEC bushings are fine for powder, it has always been the shot side that I didn't care for. |
_________________ Mark |
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Posted:
Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:35 pm
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Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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All of the above solutions to the shot weight problem work. I did run an adjustable bar for several years and they work great. You can dial in any load perfectly. For me there was too much fiddling around if you like playing with different loads, which I do. When I want to switch from 7/8 to 3/4 for my 16 gauge loads it takes less than a minute to change bars and bushings. Again, all of these methods work, so choose whichever way suits you. Many people who reload do not even have a scale, so they don't worry about all the minutiae some of us enjoy so much. Did not know exactly how MEC determined their shot cavity dimensions-just repeating something someone told me that made sense.
Regards
Jeff |
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