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Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

There's 20/28 data in the spreadsheets, and at least one with American Select, two powders I plan on keeping around as long as they're available. HS-6 and 800x are two more with other use that might go fast light.

look at Longshot data for 1 oz

BD - I'm thinking the next stuff I try will be in 25/8 cases . The heavier shot will take up less space ... another op to use the wonderful case trimmer ! Everybody get one , they are great !

Member Joined: 02 Sep 2010 Posts: 829 Location: SW Ohio

We do need to to think 3D for the shot cloud. However, I think the water stream analogy could be misleading. The shot does not spread out laterally as you swing the gun. You cannot swing the gun fast enough to make it spread out laterally. But the length of the shot string is important. A longer shot string helps to cover lead mistakes as the bird or clay may fly into the back end of the pattern, when given too much lead. But too long of a string decreases density of the "effective" pattern that actually connects with the bird. But how to measure shot string length in hand loads is something I have no idea how to do.

Probably need a very high speed camera or someway to measure the time from the first pellet to the last. A little too high tech for my back yard ability!

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3178 Location: NCWa

Member Joined: 02 Sep 2010 Posts: 829 Location: SW Ohio

Interesting so there would be an optimal distance where the trailing shot has caught the leaders and would have the max density

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

If you can just time your shots for those optimal distances, it's all gravy.

The stream of water was a dumb ole hillbilly way of putting it not so technology like.

Shooting a shotgun is an athletic event.

That being said , shooting a shotgun Is a compromise , we shoot a full choke pattern out of a cylinder bore at 18 yards. We shoot a full choke pattern out of a full choke at 40 yards , all the other chokes shoot a full choke pattern at their respective yardages.

Chokes overlap yardages a bit. But loads overlap yardages a whole bunch.

The part of the pattern that works for us is called the core , all other is the fringe.

The best that over the years of hanging around smart folks in the industry tells us that the core is around 10" give or take a mite.

From the time I hung around those smart folks ALL told me to shoot the core.

These being smart folks and all , Who Am I To Say Different !!!!

I was just a young dumb Hillbilly that was told this statement.

If you want what someone else has or does , then do what that person does , an you will have what that person has or does.

If you don't want what that person has or does . Then Do Something Different..

I just done

Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 45 Location: SC

I'm glad Skeetx found a subject that trips your trigger Nick . Good to have you posting again . There have been pictures in the past of shot emerging from chokes of various kinds . Some show the wad tugging back , some show the shot fully encased . Some show where what AM sez is somewhat true , wouldn't it be wonderful if you could figure out how to draft the rear shot right to the front and then they all seek equilibrium . A totally flat near 2d pattern ! It might happen one in a thousand , probably out of a cyl bore . But, like Nick sez , 3d is how it works . Now , the trick is to figure out how Nick gets that core out of a cyl bore at 60yds and still hit them up front ! Defies physics and every other law , But that ole HILLBILLY keeps on doing it ! Be careful of someone calling themselves a Dumb Ole Hillbilly ! (especially if money has been mentioned !!?)

Bill the big trick is finding the load speed that places the core just where your looking.

Really its no trick at all, just takes elbow grease, time and money.

Load up some shells, go shoot TRAP to tell you how a load performs if you can smoke the target everytime then your in the core, chip, chip, smoke, smoke, chip, chip.ext.ext.

CHANGE YOUR LOAD SPEED. Diagnose the hits on the target, behind put 1/2-1 grain of powder try that. Infront reduce 1/2-1 ext.

We buy a box of shells thinking all shells are just shells. HOGWASH!!!

SHOOTING A SHOTGUN IS AN ATHLETIC EVENT. start treating it as such.

I can play the devil with ANYONES SHOOTING by handing them shells with different speeds all day long.

Shells that have the LOWEST STANDARD DEVIATION IN VELOCITY WINS EVERYTIME. Consistency wins the game.

IT MATCHES THE CORE TO YOUR TIMING, not Billy Bobs but your to your timing.

Load shells, shoot over Chronograph find the closest velocity WITH DROPPED LOADS NOT WEIGHTED CHARGES we do not shoot weighted charges often.

I will tell you this that I have found that the DR 16 is the most consistant followed closely by the Gualandi wad.

I load a shell shoot 50 round over the chony. IF I LIKE WHAT I SEE I go shoot at least 4 rounds of Trap. NOT SKEET this tells us little about the load. LOWGUN Skeet teaches us how to mount the gun, how to stay in the gun and to folks through.

Regards. Nick

This last post makes Nick's method much more clear ... I'm finally beginning to understand.

Jay

No truer words have ever been posted Nick. It's all about the core and consistantly putting that core smack on the mark.

That's why I shoot trap with a 7/8 ounce 12 gauge load doing just about 1250 FPS. That short shot column is mostly core regardless of choke out at anywhere from 20 to 32 yards. The velocity is consistant. The pattern is consistant.

In consideration of my normal natural timing, 1250 FPS consistantly puts that core smack on target for me out of my TMX if I do the basics w/o thinking about it like staying in the gun and smoothly swinging through as I trip the trigger. No chips. Smoke balls in the air. That's the ticket.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

I knew I'd read about cylinder chokes and longer ranges before, it's in the John Alden Knight book on Ruffed Grouse. Two of his friends had tested shells to find that the best results came from "high speed 6's" among loadings and a 32" cylinder bore was the "best barrel for all ranges". Final 3 sentences are "Between 55 and 70 yards, the full choke, 32-inch barrel threw the best killing pattern and hit the hardest. From seventy yards on, the cylinder bore not only threw the best pattern but showed the best penetration. At all ranges, the cylinder bore showed both even distribution and ample hitting power."

Credit for that result was given to choke distorting pellets by compression. No choke, no additional damage to pellets and they retain velocity and vector at longer range. No mention of the actual shot charge weight, but getting back to light loadings of 9s maybe the sub-7/8oz loads distort a lot fewer pellets than those with 1oz and above to help retain a core of true-flying members at all useful ranges. Could be.

GG your right, I used to shoot 1250 on singles out of my TMX SPECIAL an on handicap out of that gun 1140-1160 fps. Shot exactly where I looked, faster loads shot too low for me at handicap ranges.

People think that just because the paper we shoot at has a great big pattern that everything is just peachey keen.

Inside that load that we send DOWNRANGE is a cluster about twice the size of a target that is just jam pact with pellets, the rest of the load is just along for the ride and of little use except to cripple and cost money.

The average person wanting to learn to shoot good would do well to take advantage of a .005 or less construction, shoot a fast, light load of small shot and practice on low gun Skeet untill it becomes muscle memory.

Shoot trap to test your loads and Skeet to be a better all around shot.

Regards. Nick