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salish
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Oct 2015
Posts: 94
Location: seattle, wa

Hello, I am new to this site and I was hoping I could get some advice. First, a little about me. I live in Seattle but I primarily hunt Washington's Columbia Basin for chukar, huns and valley quail. I've always hunted over an English setter, but I lost my dog this past spring (and I still can't talk about it). I've hunted mostly with 16 gauge guns for the past 15 years, along with an old 20 gauge from time to time. As our state has moved closer to a full lead ban the last year or two I've been able to find the odd box of non-tox shells for my guns, which was the Classic Double Hevi shot. It was not a huge problem for me because I primarily hunted chukar areas where lead was still allowed. Since losing my setter and also due to some health issues I cannot chase chukar in those high canyons like I used to and now must hunt lower elevations for quail, and just about all of it requires non-tox.

I saw this coming and purchased a Lee Loadall last year, but I have not started reloading. Its become a huge issue now because I cannot find ANY non-tox shells ANYWHERE, either from my local shops or online. I just learned this morning that the good folks at RST do not have any non-tox 16 or 20 gauge available, either in shells or bulk. They will be receiving some bismuth from Rio soon which they will be working with on developing new shells, but nothing right now, and they are not receiving any shot from Nice Shot. Speaking of Nice Shot, their web page does not allow one to purchase 16 gauge shells, although it still shows up on their site. I have a couple of emails into them but I have not heard back from them. In their defense I'm sure they are super busy.
Oh, ans I also found out this morning from Precision Reloading that the Classic Doubles Hevi Shot has been discontinued.

So, I'm wondering if I should run out and but an inexpensive 12 gauge until I can get this sorted out.
The only bright spot is a super helpful employee at Precision Reloading who is sending me some 16 gauge reloading data using bismuth. I apologize for this long winded post. I feel pretty passionate about my 16 gauge guns.

Thanks
Cliff
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Charlie16ga
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 924
Location: Eastern Tennessee

Cliff,

Welcome I lived in Marysville outside of Everett before I moved to NW IA.

Rio offers a bismuth load at able ammo, however, they are currently out of stock. You might check with them and see how long it will be before they have more.

Precision sells Bismuth as you already know.

Ballistic Products also sells a product called ITX which you might consider. They offer reloading data for free on their website under the load of the week archive.

Hodgdon also offers some free load data on their reloading data base online.

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16' Brown A5
15' Brown White Light Citori
13' Brown Upland Spcl BPS
02' Rem 870 Exp
53' Rem 870 Wing
53' Mar 90 DT
50' Mar 90 DT
47' Rem 31L
46' Win 12 (2)
33' Rem 31
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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:04 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Amarillo, Texas

Cliff
Welcome to the site
Good to have you on board
Mike

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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3172
Location: NCWa

Welcome Cliff,

I live in Leavenworth (100 miles E of Seattle)- in fact, tomorrow morning I'll be at the Seattle VA for an apt, as well as my son living in Carnation. I am fairly well set-up to reload 16 ga shells, and would be happy to custom load some for you. I understand your situation. Where I go Chukar hunting is near a pheasant release site and the only (paved) way to where I hunt is through the site, which bans even the possession of lead shot.

PM me if interested in follow-up and we can talk via e-mail.
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Charlie16ga
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 924
Location: Eastern Tennessee

AM,

Does Octoberfest ever end in Leavenworth?

_________________
16' Brown A5
15' Brown White Light Citori
13' Brown Upland Spcl BPS
02' Rem 870 Exp
53' Rem 870 Wing
53' Mar 90 DT
50' Mar 90 DT
47' Rem 31L
46' Win 12 (2)
33' Rem 31
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3172
Location: NCWa

Charlie- Oktoberfest actually only lasts three weeks (which just ended), So they've taken the circus tents down and the bulk-load beer dispensers, but the taverns in town still carry about 50 types of beer- so on an individual basis, someone can have their own "Oktoberfest". but thank God, the tour buses have stopped- until the next festival in a few weeks.
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RZ
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 19
Location: MidMO

There are some 16 ga in this publication-I ordered the components for the IMR 800X recipe a couple of days ago. I think the 12ga hull in the 16 ga recipe for SR7625 is supposed to be 16ga.
Randy

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/load04-18-11.htm

ballistic products inc
The Reloading Curmudgeon's
"Load of the Week"

LOAD OF THE WEEK- 2011/04/18
ITX 12/16 2.50” LOW PSI LOADS

C- For my older double shotguns I need NON-TOXIC ITX shells and a short chamber length ROLL-CRIMPED loads for 12 & 16 gauge. These are field loads for upland birds and possible decoyed ducks. Low pressures and good speeds please!

Ah, a conundrum for the Curmudgeon. Low pressure loads ride the teeter-totter. If the weight goes up, then the velocity goes down. If the generated pressure of a load remains low, then to create a (live bird) LEATHAL load, we must keep the shot weight - low. But then, when taking birds only a few pellets are required to strike the bird. A bird stuck by more than four pellets too often becomes unfit for the table.

ROLL CRIMPING: The art and science of roll-crimping in logical and forthright. Most the plastic hulls today can be roll-crimped. Now and then we find a hull plastic having the same crimping resistance as rhinoceros hide. Pass on these hulls. The good news is hull length should never be a problem. But the roll-crimp requires almost the same amount of free hull space to roll a sound crimp as does the fold crimp.

C favors a slightly thicker card (.070”) used as the overshot card. In the 12-gauge a clear (made of styrene and shatters into tiny fragments) overshot disk may placed on shot before roll-crimping. In other gauges (and in the 12-ga.) a thin nitro card can be used to top the load. (The thin [.030”] overshot cards of various gauges are most often used to solidify fold crimps when the reloader finds a fold-crimp load that is a bit too deep down to provide a floor for a solid fold-crimp.) The value in a firm overshot card in roll-crimped loads arises when the load is about to be crimped. But hold on, for a first class roll-crimp load we need to add other elements to complete our physics lesson. Our roll-crimp load needs some internal elasticity. Cork has an amazing “spring” quality. C places a cork wad (20ga inside a 12 or 16 gauge plastic shotcup or the same gauge cork outside a plastic shotcup) over the gas seal or inside the shotcup. If there is room, he then sets a felt wad on the cork to support the shot. After the shot is placed in the load then the (thick) overshot card is inserted. The load is then “squeezed” by placing the hull in the reloader under the shot drop tube. Begin nudging the components down in the hull with at least three firm nudges. NOW, roll-crimp the load before the components spring back. Your load should be firm with a minimum of tell-tale “rattle.” Remember, many roll-crimped loads are also low pressure loads. Low pressures and week crimps make for “pooff” loads.


Load# 110418-2961
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR 800X 23.0 Grains
WAD: SSW [Short Shell Wad](Mica dust the wad) +1/8cork20+1/8felt20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: COS12 on top of shot
Result: PSI 8700 FPS 1310

Load# 110418-2962
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR 800X 25.0 Grains
WAD: SSW (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 +1/8 felt20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: COS12 on top of shot
Result: PSI 8900 FPS 1390

Load# 110418-2963
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: HODGDON UNIVERSAL CLAYS 18.0 Grains
WAD: SSW (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 +1/8 felt20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: COS12 on top of shot
Result: PSI 7300 FPS 1000

Load# 110418-2964
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: HODGDON UNIVERSAL CLAYS 20.0 Grains
WAD: SSW (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 +1/8 felt20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: COS12 on top of shot
Result: PSI 7700 FPS 1130

Load# 110418-2965
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR PB 22.0 Grains
WAD: SSW (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 +1/8 felt20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: COS12 on top of shot
Result: PSI 8000 FPS 1270

Load# 110418-2966
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR PB 24.0 Grains
WAD: SSW (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 +1/8 felt20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: COS12 on top of shot
Result: PSI 8300 FPS 1335

Load# 110418-2967
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR PB 24.0 Grains
WAD: SSW (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 +1/8 felt20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: COS12 on top of shot
Result: PSI 8900 FPS 1425

And the 16-Gauge…

Load# 110418-2978
HULL: FIOCCHI 16-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR 800X 20.0 Grains
WAD: Z16 (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: N716 card on top of shot
Result: PSI 8300 FPS 1270

Load# 110418-2979
HULL: FIOCCHI 16-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: HODGDON INTERNATIONAL CLAYS 18.0 Grains
WAD: Z16 (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: N716 card on top of shot
Result: PSI 8300 FPS 1280

Load# 110418-2980
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR SR7625 20.0 Grains
WAD: Z16 (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: N716 card on top of shot
Result: PSI 6800 FPS 1130
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:49 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2165
Location: Florida

salish, I sent you a PM
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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:33 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Apr 2007
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Salish, I feel your pain. I live just south of you in Tacoma and will be chasing chukars over east tomorrow, using lead. I've had good success with ITX 4's on pheasants on release sites, but I wouldn't use them for wild chukars, and obviously not for quail. I've tried ITX 6's, but have had poor results so far. I suppose bismuth might be the best next available option, but I've never used it.

Good luck!

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salish
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Oct 2015
Posts: 94
Location: seattle, wa

To all who have responded to my post: Thank you VERY much for your help! I think I have found someone to help me get going on some reloads now, while in the meantime I’ll continue searching for some non-tox loads for my 16ga & 20ga guns. I may stand a better chance with the Twenty.
The offers of help are just unbelievable, especially from AmericanMeet & fn16ga, and RZ, your detailed loads and related info is amazing – thank you. I’ve saved it to my desktop as a resource.
Charlie16ga, are you anywhere near Mt. Vernon & Lisbon? My older daughter and her family live there. I was up in Marysville two weeks ago for a rock & gem show, it’s grown a lot.
UncleDanFan, thanks for your advice. We should compare notes on chukar. Beautiful stock work on your website, by the way.

Thanks again,
Cliff
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T-Bone
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 153
Location: Orofino, Idaho

Able ammo has 16 Ga.Hevishot Classic Doubles ammo as well as regular 16 Ga. Hevishot ammo for newer guns:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/hevishot-shotgun-shells-ammo-for-sale-online-discount-prices-c-10480_14626_14517_14574.html?page=3

Academy Sports has Rio Bismuth for your 20 Ga. at an O.K. price:

www.academysports.com

Tom

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I have more 16ga. shotguns than I need, but fewer than I want...At present: DeHaan S2, Remington M31L, Remington Wingmaster 870.
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GWP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:24 am  Reply with quote
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Posts: 404
Location: Westport Wa

Really late to this party! Hope you got your situation figured out but if not I am PMing you also offering help.
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GWP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:44 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 404
Location: Westport Wa

UncleDanFan wrote:
Salish, I feel your pain. I live just south of you in Tacoma and will be chasing chukars over east tomorrow, using lead. I've had good success with ITX 4's on pheasants on release sites, but I wouldn't use them for wild chukars, and obviously not for quail. I've tried ITX 6's, but have had poor results so far. I suppose bismuth might be the best next available option, but I've never used it.

Good luck!


I am curious about your problem with the ITX 6's. I have Bismuth, ITX and Hevi Shot and used the ITX 6 to drop a duck (drake Gadwall) this last weekend jumpshooting at about 40 yards. The load I have spreads a little more than I like but it hit's hard enough. I hunt all upland (including chukar) and waterfowl and have dropped all with all varieties of shot that I have. No steel. Did that ONE time...
We live in Washington and have been using 'Non Tox' for years 'exclusively' since I discovered a lead shell in my pocket while hunting waterfowl. Not worth the trouble of NOT using it, plus, Hevi Shot just HAMMERS, well, everything...
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salish
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Oct 2015
Posts: 94
Location: seattle, wa

T-Bone & GWP, thank you very much for your emails. T-Bone, I may grab one of these in 6. I appreciate your help.

Cliff
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