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old colonel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:34 pm  Reply with quote
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So if loads need to stay over 10,000 PSI what do we do about vinage guns proofed for service loads significantly below that?

Does this mean low pressure loads will likely be increased inconsistent?

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:39 pm  Reply with quote
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I don't know enough about vintage guns to stick on the head of a pin.

I would use the faster powders and hot primers if you have to load down. You can get good loads with some combinations. I don't know about -20 degrees F, you are asking a lot.

Most of the powders we have in the US are at their best with chamber pressures at or near 10,000 PSI.

I can't remember the numbers but for every 10 degrees below 70 degrees F, the reaction of burning powder slows down some 'X' amount. By the time you get to 0 degrees F it becomes significant. If you start with loads at 6,000 or 7,000 psi it will be a struggle to make them work at 0 degrees F.

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JPM98VMI
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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For what it's worth... Powder Valley indicates it's made in Canada. My unqualified guess from the inter-webs would be Valleyfield, Quebec. Just optimistic to see product coming to market, hoping the supply chain will be efficient and voluminous.

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jswanson
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
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Location: Adirondak Mtns

Have they come out with anything that is close to SOLO 1250??

JOe

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Interested in older US made SxS and upland hunting. New to reloading shot shells and looking for info and advice.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:03 pm  Reply with quote
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Hodgdon International and IMR PB sandwich Solo 1250 on the burn rate chart.

PB in actual application probably comes the closest, that is if you can find any.

Hodgdon Universal is probably the next best thing.

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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

Dogchaser37 wrote:
Primers are important. Using some of the Euro primers and some of the more mild US primers when trying to light off loads at those temperatures are a problem. For most loads in those temperatures, Winchester 209, CCI209M, Federal 209A and if you must use a Euro primer the Cheddites seem to be the ones to use. Remember that Euro primers are mostly made to light off single base powders which are generally easier to ignite than double base powders that dominate in the US. When it gets cold most Euro primers are not up to the task. They are good primers just not for our double base powders. You need to get Vectan or Maxam powders if you insist on Euro primers in cold weather.

Loads that are published with chamber pressures lower than 9,000 psi, should be avoided. I kinda like stuff that is over 10,000 PSI. Pressure is your friend when it comes to better loads in general, but especially when you are shooting in cold weather.

Crimps, solid, well formed and at least .055" deep, .065" deep is even better.

Good hulls, not something that the crimp area is crispy, cracked or spongy because they have been fired 10 times.

Making sure you are using the right powder for the job.......as in using Unique or Universal for a 1 oz. 16 Gauge load not Blue Dot.

There is a lot of iffy data out there, you need to be selective.

I live in CT and shoot year round. I don't have separate loads for summer and winter. I am of the opinion that if the load won't work or is inconsistent ballistically from 0 to 100 degrees F, it isn't a good load to begin with.


I live in Mn. and it does get down into the 20's below zero when shooting, and I could have written all of that. And have in the past LOL well done. Below zero usually means trap most of the skeet houses are closed because you need a heater in the trap house to keep the oil in the hydraulics working.

When Kevin at Downrange first came out with the XXL wad I had some problems with it in the cold. He spent a lot of time working with me and I him trying to find the problem. This was when he was first starting and Promo powder had come out. He had to purchase a commercial freezer to do testing, most freezers don't go down cold enough. In the end it was an issue between the Fiochhi F616 primers and Promo powder. The F616 primers have been changed since then but I still will not use Promo. At the time my son and I were going through ~20k rounds a year and lead had taken off in price and broken $20 a bag. Every little bit added up.

Promo is the only powder ever had a problem with in the cold and even then it took a special set of circumstances. I don't buy the claims that a powder like E3 is better in the cold, never have been able to prove it myself. Spanish shells like Rio's do have a problem in the cold but even those are getting better last couple of years.

When there weren't many options in primers I know of several old timers that would switch from W209 to Federals for the cold. And if they still got squibs they would crimp them "deep enough to eat chili out of". That can be a dangerous practice as it can greatly increases pressure.



Kevin had me cut a notch in the jaws of my RCBS calibers and measure every crimp for awhile. Pretty much all data published is using a depth of .055 but we settled on .065



I carried them around for a couple of years and when ever someone had a squib load I would ask to measure one of their shells for crimp depth and it was usually a lot less than .055.

If pressure is not high enough a primary and secondary ignition can occur. The first ignition is not strong enough to complete combustion and his pressure gun showed this



I've had good success going with 8k PSI, even down to 7,200 but I shoot only 7/8 oz. in the 16 and 12 and 3/4 oz. in the 20. So it is harder for me to keep pressure up. But never had a problem using W209, any powder and decent crimps even in the 20's below zero. Am older now and don't enjoy shooting in the extreme cold anymore so avoid it now.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:36 pm  Reply with quote
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I never cared for crimps at 0.055" because they never looked correct. (Only talking 12 and 16 gauges)

Every load I ever developed have had 0.065" crimps.

New ammo 12 ga. Federal Gold Medals measure 0.070" deep at the crimp. (Where I got the idea)


I believe that first spike is the primer........that one is a bit more pronounced then many I have seen. Generally the powder gets going a bit quicker and the pressure doesn't drop off as much between the two. I suppose that is what the pressure curve of that load is trying to illustrate.

Good info.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Bingo. If it doesn't work at all temps., it isn't a load worth messing with. Stick with powder company data and Lyman stuff and there should be little trouble.

I have however used 8,000-9,000psi loads a good deal in sub zero weather with no problems. Mostly down to -15F. I have used 10ga. steel shot loads (higher pressure than 9,000 though) as low as -40F twice. The report sounds really muffled and bizarre but the geese dropped just fine. Anymore I am getting reluctant to go bird hunting when it drops below -20F, my glasses fog up way too easily!

One thing that really screws up a load in any weather? A feather in the bottom of the hull! I learned to double check long ago and as such I resize/ deprime all of my hulls seperately before actually loading them. Speeds things up in the long run anyway.

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

good info from guys up above.

I just wanted to say, I found IMR Red, Green, Blue, and Target at Cabelas today. So new on the shelf they didn't have prices. But it's out there, and it's available-- I've NEVER seen Alliant BlueDot or GreenDot on a shelf at a gun store, so this IMR deal is absolutely bringing us better availability of basically those powders.
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:29 am  Reply with quote
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I haven't looked for the new Hodgden powders , the Alliant powders are usually the ones I find in stores like Bass Pro and Gander in my neck of the woods .
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:40 am  Reply with quote
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What is Target supposed to replicate?

I looked last night and can't find any data for it?

I'm probably not looking in the right place? Embarassed

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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
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Dogchaser37 wrote:
What is Target supposed to replicate?

I looked last night and can't find any data for it?

I'm probably not looking in the right place? Embarassed

Target=Bullseye

I love that Hodgdon used names to either replicate Alliant names directly or skirt around it. When Alliant came out with Clay Dot to replicate the popular Clays powder Hodgdon took them to court. The case was dismissed and I think this may be Hodgdon's shot back at Alliant. If Green ever becomes available here in large kegs at a reasonable price I will switch to it over Green Dot.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:31 am  Reply with quote
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Powder Valley, has IMR Green in stock for $133 and change for an 8 lber.

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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:47 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
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Dogchaser37 wrote:
Powder Valley, has IMR Green in stock for $133 and change for an 8 lber.

OK now your starting to scare me... Very Happy

I was just there about an hour ago they also have Green Dot in stock. I'm down to about 3 pounds of Green Dot right now. Hodgdon for loading data on the 16 cheddite hulls still only list Universal and 1 oz. loads.

If I don't buy from one of the clubs I normally use Recob's Target Shop in Wi. In the Midwest they will ship using Speedee delivery and Hazmat is "only" $15 vs. $32 for most carriers. They also have 8 pound kegs of Green for $133 and in stock. But no Green Dot. Hope Hodgdon hurries up and gets some data published for the 16 with DR16 and fast!
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:35 am  Reply with quote
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I wouldn't hold my breath for 16 Gauge loading data!! Very Happy Very Happy

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