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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 1136
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

if not touching the trigger , then back to the hammer sear/latch . gunsmith - yes . sounds like the hammer follows the action closed and because it's just following and not making a full swing , it goes off sometimes .

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drcook
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:06 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 547

This same post was over on the Ithaca forum and the same advice was given.

Ie: that there is a malfunction of the mechanism due to dirt, corrosion, breakage or wear , not the "slam fire" feature itself.

The op didn't like the answers over there the same as he doesn't like the answers here.

The gun has a problem. Either the hammer is following the breech block because the sear is not catching or the firing pin is broken or dirty and sticking out the front of the block.

Same as over on the Ithaca forum, disabling the slam fire will not fix the problem.

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kennedy756
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2015
Posts: 317
Location: NEW SALISBURY INDIANA

drcook wrote:
This same post was over on the Ithaca forum and the same advice was given.

Ie: that there is a malfunction of the mechanism due to dirt, corrosion, breakage or wear , not the "slam fire" feature itself.

The op didn't like the answers over there the same as he doesn't like the answers here.

The gun has a problem. Either the hammer is following the breech block because the sear is not catching or the firing pin is broken or dirty and sticking out the front of the block.

Same as over on the Ithaca forum, disabling the slam fire will not fix the problem.


my question was not whether or not the gun was malfunctioning, but the best way to disable the slam fire function, which I have already done.

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drcook
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:01 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 547

kennedy756 wrote:
finger was not on trigger, I know because it slam fired and I thought maybe I was on the trigger, so I loaded another shell making sure I was not even close to the trigger, and it slammed fired again. so I am going to disable it.


You said on both forums it was firing by itself and mixed that in with "slam firing" which are 2 different things.

If your finger was not on the trigger and an Ithaca 37 is going off by itself, there is/was a worn / malfunctioning / dirty / corroded part.

Period, end of story. There are literally 10's of 1000's of old guns still in service that you can rack the entire magazine through the chamber that will not fire themselves. I have a whole stack of 16ga Ithaca 37s that will not fire themselves as do my friends.

Do not mistake what was happening with your gun as the "slam firing" as the feature built into the old Ithacas. Slam firing, as applies to Ithacas, is purposely holding the trigger back while closing the slide, allowing the hammer to follow the bolt and firing the gun. This feature was removed by Ithaca sometime after 1960. It is documented in Walt Snyder's book when it was removed as a feature.

You might have "accidentally fixed" the problem by what you did by either dislodging the dirt/corrosion, or by swapping out the hammer, etc, but in and of itself, disabling the slam fire on an Ithaca does not fix an Ithaca that is discharging on closing.

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kennedy756
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2015
Posts: 317
Location: NEW SALISBURY INDIANA

drcook wrote:
kennedy756 wrote:
finger was not on trigger, I know because it slam fired and I thought maybe I was on the trigger, so I loaded another shell making sure I was not even close to the trigger, and it slammed fired again. so I am going to disable it.


You said on both forums it was firing by itself and mixed that in with "slam firing" which are 2 different things.

If your finger was not on the trigger and an Ithaca 37 is going off by itself, there is/was a worn / malfunctioning / dirty / corroded part.

Period, end of story. There are literally 10's of 1000's of old guns still in service that you can rack the entire magazine through the chamber that will not fire themselves. I have a whole stack of 16ga Ithaca 37s that will not fire themselves as do my friends.

Do not mistake what was happening with your gun as the "slam firing" as the feature built into the old Ithacas. Slam firing, as applies to Ithacas, is purposely holding the trigger back while closing the slide, allowing the hammer to follow the bolt and firing the gun. This feature was removed by Ithaca sometime after 1960. It is documented in Walt Snyder's book when it was removed as a feature.

You might have "accidentally fixed" the problem by what you did by either dislodging the dirt/corrosion, or by swapping out the hammer, etc, but in and of itself, disabling the slam fire on an Ithaca does not fix an Ithaca that is discharging on closing.


so how do I disconnect the slam fire feature?

_________________
16ga 3-Win 37
16ga Win 12 1953
16ga Ithaca 37 1946
16ga I J champion
16ga 3-H&R
16ga Western Auto Revelation
16ga Browning A-5 1929
16ga 2-Intrac O/U
16ga Lefever nitro special 1925
16ga Marlin 90 1939
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drcook
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 547

The reason everyone, including myself is so emphatic about what you were describing -vs- the designed in "slam fire feature" is well.... everyone (myself included) wanted you to really understand they are not the same thing.

From everything you said, you had it in your brain that it was the slam fire feature that caused the "malfunction discharge/accidental discharge/firing at the wrong time discharge" what ever you want to call it, discharge.

At least that is how it came across to everyone. That is why everyone has reacted the way they did.

Ithaca redesigned the mechanism and from what I gather, added a disconnector. All but 4 of my guns (I have about 13 or 14 16ga Ithaca 37's and 1 1952 12ga 37T) are the slam fire, meaning before the change. The 4 post-change guns are at the back of the safe and I have never had to disassemble them to the point if studying the mechanism. (yet). I have worked on all of my 16's, even completely taking apart the mechanisms and have found corrosion, dirt, field debris (weeds, etc) in under the mechanisms, broken springs that caused malfunctions for me.

As with the rest of the Ithaca 37 design, which is actually an old Remington design, which is actually a John Browning design everything in there works on timing and adjustment, and if it is out, it malfunctions.

So I cannot in all honesty tell you what Ithaca changed in their design that added the disconnect other than that they just didn't file something off. There was an actual part redesign.

Here is a video that shows how the "slam fire" works when the trigger is depressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNSKfvm4Sw

Now I can answer how to get it disabled and there are 3 methods.

1. send the trigger group to Les Hovencamp, he was Ithaca's main gunsmith when they were in N.Y. he has his own shop and still has parts. He was the "Lecky" who is over on Shotgun Form.

you can call him and he will take the time to talk to you about it

www.diamondgunsmithing.com

607-273-4510 they are in NY so they are on eastern time

2. send the trigger group to Ithaca Gun. They have a service where they will take your existing trigger group and replace the needed parts and return it to you with a better trigger pull than what you had. Safe and better.

call them and ask to talk to one of the techs in the service department. if you don't talk to one of the techs, you won't get the right answer

http://www.ithacagun.com/

they are here in Ohio and are on eastern time 419-294-4113

3. watch eBay for a post change trigger group. keeping in mind that there were 2 3/4" receivers and 3" receivers and the hammers are different. there are also design changes in the trigger group lengths that require some clearancing in the stock.

the bad thing about this is that you can get a worn trigger group or the 3" hammered trigger group.

I have built trigger packs for guns I built for myself, but I can tell a 2 3/4" -vs- a 3" hammer by the way it looks. They are clearanced because the bolt was made longer and all I did was swap parts and made the old ones work.

A person has to see a couple from the different design points and compare all features and then it becomes apparent what the changes were.

and yes I have gotten bad/worn trigger packs off eBay. luckily I was able to strip enough parts to salvage the cost and use in another that had rust issues when I got it

you could also call and talk to the guy in this listing, his phone nbr is there

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ithaca-Model-37-12-16-and-20-Ga-Trigger-Assembly-Refurbished-Very-strong-Nice-/252731677270?hash=item3ad7fb5a56:g:hCoAAOxy0NtTGTpf

I have dealt with him before and he is ok to deal with. when you talk to him you have to know whether or not you have the "long tang" -vs- short tang trigger pack in your gun as they take 2 different size stock bolts. Yours is a 1946 right ? so it is probably a long tang.

The one thing that I can guarantee you, is that if you get the problem fixed, and you do not put your finger on trigger your Ithaca will be back to being 100 percent safe.

When I typed it up above, I forgot about the 3 post 1950/pre-1960 20ga Ithaca 37s I have. They are also "slam fire". So I repeat, I have a stack of Ithacas and I can emphatically tell you that they will not repeat themselves if all is well.

If you look at this one, you can see the long tang. It also has the smaller, pre-early 1960 trigger bow design

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ithaca-37-12ga-Trigger-Assembly-ITH-0002-002-009-/262833856811?hash=item3d321e612b:g:MesAAOSwUKxYkoic

If you look at this one, you can see the shorter tang and also the redesigned trigger bow

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ithaca-37-12ga-Trigger-plate-assembly-ITH-0002-003-004-/262840714012?hash=item3d3287031c:g:WOcAAOSw5cNYmQRP

The redesign of the trigger bow came before the change to remove the slam fire feature if I remember correctly.

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kennedy756
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2015
Posts: 317
Location: NEW SALISBURY INDIANA

drcook wrote:
The reason everyone, including myself is so emphatic about what you were describing -vs- the designed in "slam fire feature" is well.... everyone (myself included) wanted you to really understand they are not the same thing.

From everything you said, you had it in your brain that it was the slam fire feature that caused the "malfunction discharge/accidental discharge/firing at the wrong time discharge" what ever you want to call it, discharge.

At least that is how it came across to everyone. That is why everyone has reacted the way they did.

Ithaca redesigned the mechanism and from what I gather, added a disconnector. All but 4 of my guns (I have about 13 or 14 16ga Ithaca 37's and 1 1952 12ga 37T) are the slam fire, meaning before the change. The 4 post-change guns are at the back of the safe and I have never had to disassemble them to the point if studying the mechanism. (yet). I have worked on all of my 16's, even completely taking apart the mechanisms and have found corrosion, dirt, field debris (weeds, etc) in under the mechanisms, broken springs that caused malfunctions for me.

As with the rest of the Ithaca 37 design, which is actually an old Remington design, which is actually a John Browning design everything in there works on timing and adjustment, and if it is out, it malfunctions.

So I cannot in all honesty tell you what Ithaca changed in their design that added the disconnect other than that they just didn't file something off. There was an actual part redesign.

Here is a video that shows how the "slam fire" works when the trigger is depressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNSKfvm4Sw

Now I can answer how to get it disabled and there are 3 methods.

1. send the trigger group to Les Hovencamp, he was Ithaca's main gunsmith when they were in N.Y. he has his own shop and still has parts. He was the "Lecky" who is over on Shotgun Form.

you can call him and he will take the time to talk to you about it

www.diamondgunsmithing.com

607-273-4510 they are in NY so they are on eastern time

2. send the trigger group to Ithaca Gun. They have a service where they will take your existing trigger group and replace the needed parts and return it to you with a better trigger pull than what you had. Safe and better.

call them and ask to talk to one of the techs in the service department. if you don't talk to one of the techs, you won't get the right answer

http://www.ithacagun.com/

they are here in Ohio and are on eastern time 419-294-4113

3. watch eBay for a post change trigger group. keeping in mind that there were 2 3/4" receivers and 3" receivers and the hammers are different. there are also design changes in the trigger group lengths that require some clearancing in the stock.

the bad thing about this is that you can get a worn trigger group or the 3" hammered trigger group.

I have built trigger packs for guns I built for myself, but I can tell a 2 3/4" -vs- a 3" hammer by the way it looks. They are clearanced because the bolt was made longer and all I did was swap parts and made the old ones work.

A person has to see a couple from the different design points and compare all features and then it becomes apparent what the changes were.

and yes I have gotten bad/worn trigger packs off eBay. luckily I was able to strip enough parts to salvage the cost and use in another that had rust issues when I got it

you could also call and talk to the guy in this listing, his phone nbr is there

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ithaca-Model-37-12-16-and-20-Ga-Trigger-Assembly-Refurbished-Very-strong-Nice-/252731677270?hash=item3ad7fb5a56:g:hCoAAOxy0NtTGTpf

I have dealt with him before and he is ok to deal with. when you talk to him you have to know whether or not you have the "long tang" -vs- short tang trigger pack in your gun as they take 2 different size stock bolts. Yours is a 1946 right ? so it is probably a long tang.

The one thing that I can guarantee you, is that if you get the problem fixed, and you do not put your finger on trigger your Ithaca will be back to being 100 percent safe.

When I typed it up above, I forgot about the 3 post 1950/pre-1960 20ga Ithaca 37s I have. They are also "slam fire". So I repeat, I have a stack of Ithacas and I can emphatically tell you that they will not repeat themselves if all is well.

If you look at this one, you can see the long tang. It also has the smaller, pre-early 1960 trigger bow design

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ithaca-37-12ga-Trigger-Assembly-ITH-0002-002-009-/262833856811?hash=item3d321e612b:g:MesAAOSwUKxYkoic

If you look at this one, you can see the shorter tang and also the redesigned trigger bow

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ithaca-37-12ga-Trigger-plate-assembly-ITH-0002-003-004-/262840714012?hash=item3d3287031c:g:WOcAAOSw5cNYmQRP

The redesign of the trigger bow came before the change to remove the slam fire feature if I remember correctly.


thank you for your answer, you put a lot of effort into it. I have disabled the slam fire feature to ensure my finger does not cause the problem, if it does, the worst that can happen will be a failure to fire, also have filed off a burr on the firing pin and am now resizing my reloads smaller because of a tight chamber, ran 150 rounds thru it with no problems, shooting trap with it sat.

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16ga 3-Win 37
16ga Win 12 1953
16ga Ithaca 37 1946
16ga I J champion
16ga 3-H&R
16ga Western Auto Revelation
16ga Browning A-5 1929
16ga 2-Intrac O/U
16ga Lefever nitro special 1925
16ga Marlin 90 1939
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drcook
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 547

all is good then for the time being. seeing as it has not fired on closing, you fixed whatever caused the issue. maybe the burr on the firing pin was causing it to hang up and protrude from the breech block (speculation, I don't know the location the burr was in)

I have actually gone as far as building the guns from empty receivers I bought from Numrich. all my efforts have been towards fixing/building and restoring. with what I know, I could have simply took one of the later ones apart and looked at the trigger pack and figured out how to defeat the slam fire feature

but

I still would not have said how to do it. I don't think that is something to post on the internet.

NOT because I am an Ithaca purist. Far from it. I modify my guns to make them better. I take late model guns and add earlier period stocks and make them better because the geometry of post 1954 guns are different.

One of my favorites is a post 855 gun (meaning interchangeable barrels) with an early 50's buttstock

I built my wife a 16ga Ithaca using a 24" vent rib choke tube barrel, one of the empty receivers, a pre-war fore end, a stock someone cut off and parts I scrounged. She really likes it.

Can you post a picture of your gun ? I would like to see the buttstock. Some 1946 guns came with pre-war stocks. NOT the checkering pattern, but the pre-war stock profile. I would like to see if you have one of them.

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kennedy756
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2015
Posts: 317
Location: NEW SALISBURY INDIANA

here is a pic, it has post war checkering and the butt is hollowed out. the burr on the firing pin was caused from the pin slamming against the firing pin retaining pin, was very sharp, so between extra effort needed to chamber a round in the tight chamber and the pin possibly hanging up, I got slam fires.
[URL=http://s1057.photobucket.com/user/kennedy759/media/ithaca%20001.jpg.html] [/URL]

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16ga 3-Win 37
16ga Win 12 1953
16ga Ithaca 37 1946
16ga I J champion
16ga 3-H&R
16ga Western Auto Revelation
16ga Browning A-5 1929
16ga 2-Intrac O/U
16ga Lefever nitro special 1925
16ga Marlin 90 1939
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drcook
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Dec 2012
Posts: 547

that explains the "slam shut" fires. there might even be a weak firing pin spring not holding it back enough, contributing to the issue

if the butt is hollowed out, ie: more than just a through hole for the bolt, then it is a pre-war stock with post war checkering, ie: a transition gun.

in the future, if you ever decide to sell it, get the parts to put it back to stock (ie: the slam fire) and make sure people know it is a transition gun

IF there is anyone left that still appreciates 16ga guns and old Ithacas

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