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<  16ga. General Discussion  ~  A. H. Fox, Graded or Sterlingworth, the best American Double

Best U.S. Made Double?
Best U. S. Made Double, Aesthetically ?
10%
 10%  [ 3 ]
Best U. S. Made Double, Value-Wise
32%
 32%  [ 9 ]
Best U. S. Made Double, Both Aesthetically and Value-Wise
57%
 57%  [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 28

Ruff Hunter
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2011
Posts: 109

mtbirder wrote:
"Thats right, I'm an armed liberal and I like to shoot furry little things.... and I kill 'em"

+1.........Laughing With a Citori Shocked


I have to admit, I'm not to well versed on the whole "Citori" thing....maybe because its not a sxs...

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Thats right, I'm an armed liberal and I like to shoot furry little things.... and I kill 'em with:
12Ga LC Smith
16Ga Fox Sterlingworth
16Ga BRNO
20Ga LC Smith
20Ga Miroku (Charles Daly Model 500)
28Ga AYA 4/53 (bucket list item #6)
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mtbirder
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 57
Location: Montana

Isn't it just a side by side on it's side?
Never been much of a purist. Been known to keep trout while fly fishing.
Although I do get mixed up on how to shoulder my 16's when I switch between my junky Bobwhite and my Citori. Shocked
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 62
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Max Smoke,

America's Best Box lock double gun, worded in this manner you have a chance. The Fox Gun has the Brown Rotary Bolt, although the LeFever owners are going to give you a big fight as far as Engineering design and SXS double gun beauty goes.
LeFever's side plate Box Lock guns are beautiful Engineering.

The old timers called the Fox the L.C. Smith Box Lock, and for the most part they were absolutely correct, most of the Fox employees worked for Hunter Arms 1st. John Hunter Sr. President of the Hunter Arms Company granted his employees working for A.H. Fox, permission to build with the Brown Rotary Bolt engineering. Great Box Lock guns no doubt about it.


Mac and I had lots of great conversations about L.C. Smith and Fox guns, I do miss talking with him very much. John Houchins added to the discussions, and along with Walt Schiessl, the knowledge and experience in those conversations was just incredible during those days. All these guys are probably talking double guns with God now, all have moved upstairs except for me.

The fact is if you like Box Lock SXS Classic American double guns, Fox is probably the best US made Box Lock SxS double gun, however Ithaca also was allowed to use the Brown Rotary Bolt on some of their SXS double guns. L.C Smith's older brother was a major partner in the Ithaca Gun Company and Ithaca made some incredible SXS double guns in their early days with the Brown Engineering.

Pine Creek/Dave

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"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
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Rogue Hunter
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:37 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Minnesota

A.H. Fox does it for me, would like to have a straight stock XE. But, bring up Fox when my brother talks about his two Elsie's and his expression goes blank.

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Mossberg 190K
Ithaca M37
Stevens 311
CSMC RBL
Lefever Long Range Field and Trap
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studdog
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:47 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 334
Location: drummond island MI

The Fox guns are superior in every way. The best value still is a Sterlingworth. I prefer the graded foxes myself and I am lucky to own a perfect oringinal XE . The others, LC Smith , Parkers and Lefevers are good guns but not up to the standards of the Fox. Actually, Many people find the LC's and Parkers butt ugly compared to the fox.

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shoot quick but take your time!
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 62
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,
1st the Fox is a simple Box Lock engineered double gun, although it has Alexander T. Browns fantastic Rotary Bolt engineering at the blessing of (L.C. Smith) Hunter Arms.

In no way can the simple Box Lock Engineering of the Fox double gun be compared to the incredible Side Lock Engineering of the L.C. Smith. If you want to know more about the L.C. Smith engineering pick up a copy of the Double Gun Video's presents The L.C. Smith Sidelock Shotgun, with Master Gun Maker Nick Makinson. Listen to what a true Master Gun Maker has to say about the L.C. Smith double gun, see the engineering for yourself as he explains it by disassembling and reassembling an actual L.C. Smith double gun and explains why it take a true Master gun maker to work with the guns engineering.

Down thru the generations our family has owned many Fox and Elsie double guns.
I like the Fox guns very much especially the light 16's, however when talking engineering design, Hunter Arms understood that the Fox Box Lock double gun would never be any real competition for their business, and when their own employees who also worked for Fox approached John Hunter Sr. about being granted permission to use the Brown Rotary Bolt Engineering on their Box Lock gun, he gave them his blessing. In fact he helped them with some investment monies thru one of Hunter Arms Major investors.

There are lots of gun writers who love Fox double gun, my friend Mac was one of them. Remember however they are writers and not Master Gun makers, they did however influence the American gun buying sportsman with their writing.

Liking and writing about double guns and knowing the engineering design behind the guns are two vastly different professional careers. To understand the engineering of any double gun, always take the advise and education of the Master Gun Maker.

Opinions on double guns vary, however engineering design is fact.

Pine Creek/Dave

L.C. Smith America's Best - John Houchins

A Special order Pre 1913 L.C. Smith Pigeon Grade Double Gun, part of our family gun collection.
[URL=http://s264.photobucket.com/user/pine-creek/media/DSC07705.jpg.html] [/URL]


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sun May 14, 2017 8:25 am; edited 4 times in total

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:20 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 310

I once saw a fish near a ladder
with an expression that could not have been sadder.
He tried once again
to stand on a fin
but he never climbed up that damn ladder.
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studdog
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:26 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 334
Location: drummond island MI

Beauty is in the eyes of beholder, engineering is in the eye of the engineer. That's why ugly girls sometimes attend the prom.

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skeettx
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 6982
Location: Amarillo, Texas

I do like my Specialty Grade Smith



Mike


Last edited by skeettx on Sun May 14, 2017 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 62
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

skeettx,
You also have a fantastic Baker double gun that is even nicer.

RGD/Dave

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skeettx
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:42 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Amarillo, Texas

YUP
The Baker is good also




and other smith made in 1893 Smile
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 62
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Rogue Hunter,

It may be that your brother just might know a little about good Side Lock double gun engineering and is staring at you in total disbelief!


skeettx,

That old Baker Graded Double Gun is not just Good - It's Fantastic-
The old Jacob Glahn Sr light German Style Engraving on your Baker double gun, is world class Engraving, by a very very talented Master Engraver. In his era one of the very best game scene engravers in the world.

Even today at over 100 years old the engraving is so life like, it jumps off the side Locks at the viewer.

Treasure your piece of American History, if you ever decide to sell that double gun contact me 1st.

Depending on how old that original Baker Gun actually is, that gun maybe engineering proof that Baker not LeFever, actually made the 1st Single Selective Triggers for America's classic Double guns. Legend has it there were 3 Baker pre-production Graded guns produced with Single Selective Triggers, that predate LeFevers SST engineering. You may own one of those 3 Baker guns. It might be a good idea to see if the SST serial number on that Baker Gun matches the rest of the gun, you might be sitting on a bigger piece of American gun history than you could ever imagine. However if another owner upgraded the original Baker gun with a Miller SST, that is a different story. Either way the gun is truly incredible.

Pine Creek/Dave


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sun May 14, 2017 4:51 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Beagleman
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 153
Location: S.C.

Thanks for the pictures. Fantastic! I have an Elsie from 1919 field grade F/M that is still useful for quail with the help of polywad doublewide shells. So is my Philly Sterlingworth. L.C. or Fox , I like both! Polywad has made them fun and useful for quail.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 62
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Beagleman,

I love the 2 1/2" Poly SpredR shells also, and use them in my original Fox, Elsie, LeFever and Sauer Guns all the time to Grouse and Woodcock hunt with, very serious bird killers these SpredR shells.

If you want to get your original L.C. Smith M/F Chokes opened up for Quail hunting contact Rich Painter at 724-266-0232 he works on my good Elsie Guns. Rich can open your Elsie M/F to C/IC for about $50.00 a tube. With the SpredR shells you will have the ultimate Elsie Quail gun.

Ed who runs the SSBB for Phil just posted this week about some other new 2 1/2 " shells, similar to the SpredR's. You might want to check them out. 2 1/2" 1300 FPS shells for around $199 for 200 shells. I am considering trying them myself.

Pine Creek/Dave

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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 2818
Location: NCWa

Citoris (and other O/Us) are for SxS shooters that like to lay down on the job. Wink
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