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<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  recoil of 7/8 oz in rgl with dr16
Savage16
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:06 pm  Reply with quote
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Loaded a box of the above with 14.6 gr of gr dot and took them out for clays. should be about the same velocity as what I've been loading in my 1 0z load. I really cant tell any difference in the recoil, so wondering what the benefit is. Am I going to see it at the patterning board? I know 1 box is not a scientific test, just an initial impression.

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skeettx
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:16 pm  Reply with quote
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Will you chronograph a few?
Mike

p.s.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=chrony

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JNW
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:51 pm  Reply with quote



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When we go up or down in shot weight the speed of the load doesn't always change the way we think it might. For example, when we drop a load from 1 oz to 7/8 oz if we get an efficient burn the velocity of the lighter load may well increase. If that is the case then the recoil of the lighter load may be similar to the heavier load due to the increase in velocity.
If the decrease in shot weight causes a decrease in the efficiency of burn, then we will most likely get either a similar velocity with the lighter load as we had with the original heavier load, or possibly even a slight decrease in velocity. Either of those outcomes will result in the lighter load now giving less recoil. When I want to compare the relative recoil of different loads I have to shoot them back to back.
The major benefit of a lighter load, even without a decrease in perceived recoil, is a cost savings that now allows us to shoot more for the same price!
Savage, I happen to have a chronograph. Perhaps we can shoot together and measure your loads?
Regards,
Jeff
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Savage16
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:39 am  Reply with quote
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Jeff, My initial thinking was that the 2 loads were running very close to the same velocity, the lighter load should feel like less recoil. But your comments on efficiency has me wondering if it might be the difference in the powders. The 1 oz is totally different build using fed hull, slow powders like 4756 and herco, claybuster aa16 wad at 1160 fps. This vs the above load using faster Green dot which Mike Campbell says should run 1170 fps. It would be interesting to do the chronographing though. Do you want to pm me some days / times that work for you?

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:41 pm  Reply with quote
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My standard 3/4 and 7/8 ounce loads call for 16 grains of Green Dot in a RGL hull. The 7/8 ouncers do about 1180 FPS. The 3/4 ouncers up it to about 1200 FPS.

The RGL hull has a smaller inside diameter and a smaller capacity than a Federal hull, so pressures would be higher and velocities somewhat faster all else being equal. I question the 1170 FPS velocity using 14.6 grains of GD in a Federal hull. I would expect that velocity if your powder charge was around 17.5 grains or so in a Federal hull.

Faster burning powders can and usually do produce a somewhat slightly sharper recoil impulse, the difference of which can be felt if velocities and shot loads are about equal. However, if velocity is equal, then the lighter shot weight will almost always produce somewhat less felt recoil.

I also suggest there might be other factors at work if felt recoil is about the same as that from a 1 ounce load doing 1160 FPS when fired in your gun. Stock and forcing cone configurations, chamber and hull length, bore diameter and condition, plus shooting style and gun weight all affect felt recoil. Even then, no two shooters experience felt recoil the same way.
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mike campbell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:58 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:34 am  Reply with quote
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Mike, I see you are using a Federal 209A primer in the RGL, Green Dot loads you've listed. The Federal 209A is considered to be a very robust primer. I think we can reasonably expect higher pressures and velocities with much hotter primers.

I normally use the much cooler Remington Premier or Noble Sport 209 primers in my RGL, 16 grain GD loads. I did omit my primer choice in my post. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

Later in the thread, the OP alluded to using Federal hulls in his 1 ounce loads. My post was partially in response to that for the benefit of others who might be reading our posts. Not everyone is fully aware that different hulls can have significantly different volumes and the effect hull volumes have on pressures and velocities.
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Savage16
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:19 am  Reply with quote
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Like 16 gauge guy, I didn't mention my primer either, which in both loads is Winchester. Those are a little milder than Fed's, correct? Mike I noticed you didn't state the pressure for the rgl/14.6 gr load like you did the other 2. Do you know it?
I shoot absolutely no where near the volume that JNW does so my motivation in going to a 7/8 oz isn't cost savings but to go easier on my old guns wood.

I haven't gotten with JNW to actually run them through his chrony, but my experience this weekend at the DDG was positive. For the main sporting clays event, I filled my shell bag with half of each of these loads. I mostly was running the 7/8 in the first barrel and 1oz in the left. I cant say that I ever was able to notice any difference in recoil. Except for the longer shots, I couldn't notice any difference in the clay crushing ability either.

I load with a sizemaster and haven't experienced the trouble others have mentioned in the past with getting the DR started into the RGL, quite the opposite. I'm also ending up with a factory like crimp. I guess the short version is I'm very happy with this load and will use it a lot, whatever the speed is. Thanks Mike.

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double vision
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:05 am  Reply with quote
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Just an add-on thought....I shot a round of sporting clays a couple weeks ago with two 16 gauge guns. For the first 50 I shot my Silver Hawk and had a decent 41/50 with the Herter's factory 8's. I shot the 2nd half with my little Belgian OU choked 10 & 20 and I used my 3/4 oz. reloads. On that round I had a 46/50 and the thing that really stuck out in my mind was how light the recoil felt on a light gun, and even more so how those little 3/4 oz. loads smashed the clays. I've been just shooting 3/4 oz. at skeet, but based on what I experienced I'm going to be loading a lot more 3/4 oz. loads for my 16 ga. sporting clays.
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mike campbell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:49 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:42 pm  Reply with quote
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In all fairness the Mike, I should also add that my standard 3/4 and 7/8 ounce RGL loads use a Remington R16 wad w/ one or two 28 ga. nitro card filler wads in the shot cup. The R16 wads are what we might call "first generation" designs. The wad bases have relatively shallow cups. Gas seals are probably less efficient than those found on the later WWAA designs.

Several years ago, a fellow member had his 3/4 and 7/8 ounce, RGL loads tested. He used my 16 gr. Green Dot recipe. As I remember (always iffy at my age), his peak pressures and velocities ran about 9200 PSI/1180 FPS for the 7/8 ounce loads and about 8900- 9000 PSI/1200 FPS for the 3/4 ounce loads. The results were just about what I had expected.

The DR16 wad base is basically the same design as the Winchester wads. I would expect peak pressures to be somewhat higher if all else was equal. Toss in the Federal 209A primer and I've no doubt Mike's average peak pressures are right up there.
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rustybronco
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:24 pm  Reply with quote



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mike campbell wrote:

In the RGL recipe, 16.0 grains gives 1241 fps @ 11,600 psi. The 14.6 grains gives 1170 fps at ???....I'm guessing 9,000 psi, but it's surely less than SAAMI MAP ...and that's all I care about.
Thanks for the information Mr Campbell.

That is what I have been looking for. Something that 'may' be easier on the gun and my body, plus it looks like I can use the DR16 in both my Federal hulls as well.
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putz463
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:20 am  Reply with quote
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Savage16 wrote:
I really cant tell any difference in the recoil


It might be recipe issue, hope it is. If its a continuing problem for you...
Have you had the head space in the gun checked out? I had a gun that by all accounts should have shot 3/4 - 1oz loads comfortably with normal recoil but didn't, punishing recoil no matter the shell/load. Stock fit me, overall weight was right in the ballpark, couldn't figure it out, asked on here about if forcing cone work would settle unexplained recoil down and a 16ga member suggested looking at the head space and bingo, had terrible HS issues. Simplest test was to load the gun (outdoors of course) with loose fitting shells that slipped in the chambers easily, safety on, shake the gun to and fro like mixing a spray paint can and I heard bonk bonk bonk, the shells bouncing around in the chambers. Then put 3 little (BB'ish) balls of modeling clay equidistantly around the base of a couple of shells, closed the gun, opened up and measured the thickness of the clay and it averaged around 0.030-0.035" for both top and bottom barrels.

Hope this helps & best of luck with it

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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:36 am  Reply with quote



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I load my RGL's 7/8 oz with 14.2 grns of Green Dot using a Claybuster 7/8 oz wad. and a Rio primer. Used to us Win. but like Rios better. Very low felt recoil,and preforms well. The Claybuster seems a better fit in Remington hulls then DR,or BPI. Use nothing but DR in Federal and Cheddite.
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