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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Bismuth Shot Question |
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Posted:
Thu May 25, 2017 12:22 pm
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Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Michigan
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So I've been curious about expanding my recent reloading foray into the world of non-tox loads.
Have spent a fair bit of time reading and researching around all of the various non-tox solutions out there, think I have a fair understanding of most of the pros and cons of each.
Cost obviously seems to be a big trade off in any of the non-steel/non-tox options. So while I was poking around today adding data to some of my component cost spreadsheets (i'm a big fan of spreadsheets, part of my disorder I suppose ) I visited the Rotometals site. They have Bismuth shot available for sale for reloading, it was priced on "sale" for 169.00 for a 10 lb bag, they had buckshot through #9. Also had a tag line where some areas qualify for free shipping.
So I loaded up an order cart as if I was going to buy a bag of #5's, came out with no shipping, no tax, out the door for the advertised 169. Compared to what I'd seen elsewhere, $17/lb out the door seems like a really good deal, so I of course am suspicious of it.
Anyone have any experience with product from that particular establishment? Or have any other context to lend that I'm not considering? Figure it could be a great deal. Could appear to be a great deal for what is in practice an inferior product to that offered by BPI, Precision, Graf etc...
Just curious. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Rob |
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Posted:
Thu May 25, 2017 2:26 pm
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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will they send a sample? if so, test it for frangibility. Do they tell you the alloy metal? |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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Posted:
Thu May 25, 2017 2:36 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9472
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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https://www.rotometals.com/bismuth/
This company is highly respected over on the castboolit web site
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
They ALSO sell a one pound bag for you testers
https://www.rotometals.com/bismuth-shot-alloy-for-reloading-shells-1-bag-sample-made-in-usa/
Mike
p.s.
New !, Bismuth shot for reloading shotgun shells. Our bismuth shot is alloyed with 6% tin to increase pellet integrity. Bismuth is one of the softest of all the non-toxic alternative shot types and that makes it very suitable for old double guns and other shotguns with fixed chokes.
Bismuth's density is 9.6 grams/cubic centimeter,
All sizes have a +/- .005" tolerance average,
Lead Free & Non-toxic:Bismuth shot materials are approved for use by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. |
_________________
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USAF RET 1971-95 |
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Posted:
Thu May 25, 2017 3:19 pm
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Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Michigan
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Posted:
Thu May 25, 2017 4:49 pm
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Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 467
Location: SC PA
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Good to know they are now selling Bismuth shot. Considering Precision Reloading is $185-$227 for 6.6lbs, I'd say that's a damn good price if the shot is a quality pellet.
They often run holiday coupons. Might be worth waiting to see if they do anything for Memorial Day.
Marcus |
_________________ "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man" - Vito Corleone
''Common Sense isn't common" -Lefty Kreh |
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Posted:
Thu May 25, 2017 8:35 pm
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017
Posts: 226
Location: Valdosta GA
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I can get a deal on tungsten. Remind me in the morning to call about the price. Look up nice shot as well |
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Posted:
Thu May 25, 2017 11:38 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348
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That's brand new, as I was on the site looking at buying bismuth ingots to make shot, about 3 weeks ago, and there was no shot for sale.
Of note, the POSTED price is $219/10 lbs (2.19$ /lb), but it's on sale currently for 169$. I expect this is probably an introductory sale, as it's a good price!
Also of note, the shot sizes are real US sizes-- most bismuth shot you have to actually measure it and read a bunch as it tends to be UK sizes, which are smaller-- so you end up with poor shot for your purposes if you don't read and size accordingly.
My analysis of bismuth tells me the optimal size shot for me, on ducks, would be #4.5, with a diam of .125"; unfortunately no one sells that. #5 shot at 1300fps (most bismuth recipes are around this) essentially gives the same penetration as #3 steel, but a 25% increase in pellets for same payload. #4 shot at 1300fps gives the same pellet count as #3 steel, but a 10 yard increase in range.
Looking at 16ga and 20ga steel vs bismuth loads, I see I can do 7/8oz, 1oz, and 1-1/8oz in both guns in bismuth; and about 410-420 gr or 15/16oz reloads in steel. Actually I can do a full 1oz in steel at 1485fps in 20ga and 16ga, but the recipes are not published. In any case, comparing 1450fps 1oz of steel with 1300fps 1oz of bismuth looks to be a fair comparison, and you could get an extra 1/8oz in a bismuth load if desired.
1000'msl 32F 1300fps bismuth, 1450fps steel, 1oz loads, 1.5" ballistic gel penetration:
#4 steel---- , 190 pellets, 31.0 yds, 32 ftlbs recoil
#3 steel---- , 152 pellets, 38.3 yds, 32 ftlbs recoil
#2 steel---- , 123 pellets, 46.2 yds, 32 ftlbs recoil
#4 bismuth , 156 pellets, 48.2 yds, 26 ftlbs recoil
#5 bismuth , 199 pellets, 38.7 yds, 26 ftlbs recoil
#4 bismuth , 176 pellets, 48.2 yds, 32 ftlbs recoil << 1-1/8oz payload though
#5 bismuth , 173 pellets, 38.7 yds, 21.5 ftlbs recoil << 7/8oz payload
#5 bismuth , 149 pellets, 38.7 yds, 17 ftlbs recoil << 6/8oz payload
You can look at it a few ways; I put in the max load #4 bismuth since you might want that with the larger pellets; and a reduced load of 7/8oz with the #5 since you don't need that many pellets with a 39 yd payload.
Basically what I see is this: #3 steel is the same as #5 bismuth for range, and both get me just to the edge of where I say I want to stop shooting ducks. But with #5 bismuth, I can get the same pellet count of 1oz steel with 3/4oz bismuth, and half the recoil almost. I'm pretty happy with 152 pellets at 40 yards (I only need 90 for large ducks, 125 for med, and 140 for small in a 30" pattern), so the #3 steel 1oz load already works great for me. So I would probably go for the smaller bismuth load to match pellet count and range, but get much less recoil. What that costs me is the shot is about 10 times as expensive, at $1.06 of shot per shell... I'm not sure I shoot enough at ducks to pay $1 per shell for reduced recoil, but I might like a few more pellets and still have low recoil.
For slightly longer shots, #4 bismuth gives me about the same range as #2 steel, 48 vs. 46 yards-- I like those ranges better, because now I'm sure that my pellets still penetrate and work beyond where I say I want to stop shooting, around 40 yds, plus a bit of a nice safety pad for 2nd shots. In 20ga and 16ga I usually don't use #2 steel because it doesn't give me enough pellets in a 1oz payload (123) to account for an 80% pattern and still get enough for medium ducks--only 98 pellets would be left, enough for large mallard sized ducks (90) but not wigeon sized stuff I see a lot of (125). Now with #4 bismuth, I can get a nice boost in pellet count from #2 steel, and get just a bit better range.
I'm not sure #5 bismuth offers enough advantage over #3 steel to pay $16.90 a pound vs. for 10 lbs of steel-- I can basically do the job with either one out to 39 yards or so in a 16 or 20ga gun. And inside of 40 yards, it's pretty easy to get strong patterns at 80% to 100%, so I don't really need the bismuth pellet count there; inside of 30 yards I can certainly go to #4 steel and have plenty of pellets again. So #5 bismuth to me offers just a marginal pellet increase I might not need at it's functional ranges of 30-40 yards, but nicely reduced recoil... that might be a player for young or small shooters using a 20ga. Larger #4 bismuth gives me the range of #2 steel, but the pellet count of #3 steel. These advantages only come into play between 40-48 yards, and might be worth $0.90 per shell more (bismuth cost - steel cost)... If I want to shoot medium ducks out to 48 yards, then yeah, bismuth #4 is worth it. |
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 7:23 am
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Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 548
Location: Ohio
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UNTESTED LOAD!!! 16 gauge Federal hull and primer,18 grains of Universal, Claybuster blue 1 oz. wad and 15/16 oz of #4 Bismuth is a very good patterning load with mild recoil. I shoot em in my old guns with confidence. I say again UNTESTED LOAD!!! |
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 9:26 am
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Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Michigan
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Thanks all for the thoughts. As always the collective knowledge on this board blows me away.
Well i went ahead and ordered a bag.
If there is anything anyone would like me to look for/try/report back on, feel free to ask and I'll do whatever I can to help.
Soon as I get done googling "frangibility" anyway.... |
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 10:26 am
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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"frangibility"
Bismuth shot has had a reputation of shattering on setback. The problem was reduced by careful alloying of the shots components. So all you can hope for is that they used the right receipt. To test just strike the pellet with a hammer while on a steel surface. |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 3:21 pm
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Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 467
Location: SC PA
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Received an email from RotoMetals today. 10% off orders of $120 or more, today through the 29th, using code may10.
Marcus |
_________________ "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man" - Vito Corleone
''Common Sense isn't common" -Lefty Kreh |
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 4:59 pm
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Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 14
Location: Cape Cod
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Upland Carpenter wrote: |
Received an email from RotoMetals today. 10% off orders of $120 or more, today through the 29th, using code may10.
Marcus
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Nice! Just ordered some copper plated shot, not a bad deal at all with free shipping. |
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 6:12 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 27
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DAVE IN AZ - THAT'S AN IMPRESSIVE CHUNK OF RESEARCH. I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT BISMUTH KILLS BETTER THAN STEEL OR MAYBE EVEN HEVI-SHOT BECAUSE OF THE SOFTNESS OF IT.IT SURE SEEMS TO DO MORE DAMAGE. WHAT DO YOU THINK? |
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 6:53 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348
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Thx. Here's the actual full writeup i put on my blog with a bit more analysis and goose.loads too
https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/bismuth-shotpayload-size-analysis/
Havent shot any, but.at tbis price it looks much better than steel, and the range and pellet counts in normal payloads are sufficient that it may displace hw13 for me. Well, I suppose it better, as I ordered 30 lbs of it!
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Posted:
Fri May 26, 2017 7:58 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2175
Location: Florida
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#5 bismuth , 199 pellets, 38.7 yds, 26 ftlbs recoil
The #5 Eley Bismuth I have is 176 to the oz , Let us know what you are actually getting with the Roto Metal stuff |
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