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<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  ITX 10, & ITX 13, loads w/ Lilgun & Steel
mcrewz
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

I sent three loads off for testing with Tom. And before you get to excited none of the loads panned out and will require further testing.
As a side note Tom is disconnecting his old number and only using his cell phone. He said I could share his new number with the forum 815 451 6649

Load 1 DO NOT SHOOT

Hull: Federal 16ga 2.75
Primer: CCI magnum
Powder: Lilgun 39.0 gr
Wad: VP80 w/ 1/4" 20ga felt
Shot: 440 gr ITX 10 #4
Crimp: 6 point

Results 1415 FPS 82 FPS EV
10640 PSI 3000 PSI EV

I based the load above off this load from BPI.

*NON- TOXIC (ITX-10) COLD WEATHER *
Load# 150622-6661
HULL: Federal 16-gauge 2.75”
PRIMER: FED209A
PROPELLANT: Hodgdon LIL’GUN 41.0 Grains
WAD: CSD16 (3 slits)
+ 1/8” 20ga Felt wad
Mica dust wad,
SHOT: 1-ounce (437 gr.) ITX-10 shot
FOLD CRIMP: 6-point
Results: 11000 PSI 1490 FPS

I changed to a CCI magnum primer based off talk on this forum of it providing good ignition but with lower pressures than the Federal 209A. Tom was guessing that the excessive variation was from powder migration because of lilgun being a ball powder and the federal being the largest capacity hull for the 16ga. I measured the diameter of the base wad/gas seal on the VP80 .660 and for the CSD16 .650. The CSD16 has a thicker lip on the powder cup where as the VP80 has a thin lip that is more flared out. I cut a section out of a hull down to the brass to see how the
wads sealed against the base of the hull. The VP80 seem to have a decent
seal but he CSD16 has a more "visible gap" bottom line is the CSD16 didn't fit as snuggly as the VP80. So if the VP80 has a migration issue in this load I can only imagine the CSD16 wad will have an even greater migration problem.


Two ideas came to mind as to how to fix the issue. The first and probably
the simplest is to use a Cheddite hull. This hull having a smaller
capacity may have a better fit with the VP80 to prevent migration. I
thought of dropping to 38 grains and shooting over a chronograph to see if
I get a consistent velocity. I had a 7/8oz ITX13, VP80, longshot, cheddite hull load tested last year that yielded consistent results. So the Cheddite, VP80, ball powder combination works.


My second idea was to keep the current load (dropping to 38 grains) but to
put a 16ga overshot card between the powder and wad. The BPI 16ga overshot
cards fit very snuggly in the base of a Federal hull. I have no doubt this
will prevent any and all migration. But my questions to all of you are 1)
What will this do to pressures? 2) Will this cause a problem with fouling
because I am essentially sticking a piece of paper between the powder and
the wad?


If I can get either of these two ideas to produce consistent velocities I
will send in for testing.


Load #2 DO NOT SHOOT OVER PRESSURE

Hull: Federal 16ga 2.75
Primer: CCI magnum
Powder: Steel 23.0 gr
Wad: VP80 w/ 2(1/8" 28ga nitro cards) 1/4" 20ga felt
Shot: 492 gr ITX 13 #4
Crimp: 6 point

Results 1234 FPS 15 FPS EV
12280 PSI 700 PSI EV

This next load I based off of the load developed by fn16ga. The only
things I changed were I added 1 grain of powder and swapped in ITX13 and
spacers. I thought this load would be under pressure with the
common thought being the same weight of a more dense material will produce less
pressure at the same velocity. Well not in this load. Tom recommended
dropping this load by 1 grain and it should be under 11500 and around
1200FPS (which is right where fn16ga load was w/ ITX10) He also suggested
using all felt spacers rather than the nitro cards because felt will have
more set back upon ignition and will drop the pressure, more so than the
hard nitro cards.


Load # 3 DO NOT SHOOT WAAAAYYYYY OVER PRESSURE

Hull: Federal 16ga 2.75
Primer: CCI magnum
Powder: Steel 26.0 gr
Wad: VP80 w/ 1/4" 20ga felt
Shot: 440 gr ITX 10 #4
Crimp: 6 point

Results 1397 FPS 38 FPS EV
13000 PSI 1900 PSI EV

My third load was way hot. I didn't base this load off anything. I just
kind of threw it together and was hoping it would be good. Tom recommended
dropping this load by at least 2 if not 2.5 grains. He estimated it would
be close to pressure and be around 1300FPS. I will probably drop to 23.5
grains and send it in for testing.


So while none of my loads panned out it has given me a starting point and
some options as to where to go from here. I am open to any and all
advice.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:15 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn

The problems I have had with very slow powders in large charges has been the heat distorting the seal on the wad. I put a .125 nitro card under the wad and went to Rio primers and it stopped. I use new primed Rio hulls for hunting loads with great results.New hulls are super slick inside allowing for much less friction on tubular wads.

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

very good info to use as datapoints for edge of the envelope, thanks much for doing the work and also posting it!
Dave
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mcrewz
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

I conducted a test and lil'gun does migrate past a vp80 wad. Migration was suspected in the federal hull based on the inconsistency of the load above. I had some clear rio hulls so I loaded two of them. The first was with lilgun vp80 and 1oz itx w/ 1/4 felt. The second shell had the same load only a 16ga overshot card was placed between the powder and the wad.
I put both shells in my pocket for two days while I walked around and went about my normal business. The load with no overshot card had about 30 flakes of powder that had migrated past the wad seal.. The load with the overshot card had no migration. I'll probably conduct this test with the clear rio hull and the csd16 to see what the results are.
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mcrewz
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:44 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

I just conducted the same test with the clear rio hull lilgun & csd16 wad. The csd16 wad had a huge problem with powder migration. In a matter of a few minutes at least 1 grain of powder had migrated. Again using the 16ga overshot card over the powder solved this problem. I just don't know what adding that os card does to pressures.

Has anyone else experienced consistency/ migration problems with lilgun?

Does anyone know what the industry standard is for variation in fps and psi in factory loads?
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:57 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2165
Location: Florida

Hull: Federal 16ga 2.75
Primer: CCI magnum
Powder: Lilgun 39.0 gr
Wad: VP80 w/ 1/4" 20ga felt
Shot: 440 gr ITX 10 #4
Crimp: 6 point

Results 1415 FPS 82 FPS EV
10640 PSI 3000 PSI EV

I think you could improve the consistency of this load by replacing the soft filler with hard cards or maybe even cork , the pressure will rise though so you may have to reduce the powder charge a little .

New hulls will always give less pressure than once fired , but reducing the hull volume will increase pressure , not sure how the Fed hulls compare to the Rio hulls for volume .

For powder migration issues try the tyvec under the wad as Dogchaser suggested in an earlier thread .
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:05 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2165
Location: Florida

Hull : 16ga Federal 2 3/4” – Once Fired
Primer : CCI 209 Magnum
Powder: Alliant Steel 22.0 grains
Wad : PT-1680 (VP80) 4 Slits with (1) BPI 1/8” 20ga cork in cup
Shot: ITX10 #4 1 1/8 oz
Crimp 6 Fold .055 deep

5 shots

1196 FPS EV 8 11140 psi EV 300

This about all you can get out this load with Steel powder , I was thinking of trying it with 34 grains of Lilgun but haven't taken the time to but it together yet .


Last edited by fn16ga on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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mcrewz
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

I was able to make it to the range today and run some loads over the chronograph. The load in my original post was way to hot with 26 grains of steel. Here are my results with 23.5gr, 23.0gr, and 22.5gr. I only fired 3 rounds at each weight.

Again DO NOT SHOOT, NOT PRESSURE TESTED!!!!!

Hull: Federal 16ga 2.75
Primer: CCI magnum
Powder: Steel 23.5 gr
Wad: VP80 w/ 1/4" 20ga felt
Shot: 440 gr ITX 10 #4
Crimp: 6 point

1. 1344 FPS
2. 1348 FPS
3. 1352 FPS

Based off my previous talk with Tom A. these rounds are probably still over pressure


Hull: Federal 16ga 2.75
Primer: CCI magnum
Powder: Steel 23.0 gr
Wad: VP80 w/ 1/4" 20ga felt
Shot: 440 gr ITX 10 #4
Crimp: 6 point

1. 1322 FPS
2. 1332 FPS
3. 1338 FPS

Pure conjecture, but I'm guessing these are either right at pressure or just slightly over. This is probably the load I will send in to retest.


Hull: Federal 16ga 2.75
Primer: CCI magnum
Powder: Steel 22.5 gr
Wad: VP80 w/ 1/4" 20ga felt
Shot: 440 gr ITX 10 #4
Crimp: 6 point

1. 1289 FPS
2. 1297 FPS
3. 1310 FPS

Again I am just guessing, but based off previous tests of 1 1/8oz loads w/ 22.0 grains coming in under or right at pressure I would feel pretty good that this load is under pressure.
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