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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:47 pm  Reply with quote
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Canvasback, settle down, remember opinions, opinions, who gives a big fat rat's ass? Wink

Dale

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canvasback
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 463
Location: Ontario

Cheyenne08 wrote:
Canvasback, settle down, remember opinions, opinions, who gives a big fat rat's ass? Wink

Dale


I couldn't agree more Dale. You said in one line what took me a whole bunch! Laughing

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kgb
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:43 am  Reply with quote
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WyoChukar wrote:

However,when in the field, of all the doubles I have carried I like the Lefever and Fox the best followed by a Beretta O/U. Period.

With that I emphasize that actually using and relishing a firearm for its handling qualities and other intangible attributes triumphs over any engineering squabble. We carry a gun for the enjoyment not because of a gunsmith's article, no matter how valid his points may be.


A Lefever and a Fox have felt to me the most comfortable through the frames to carry but I enjoy hunting a boxy Model 21 at least as much. I've owned them longer than the others, probably a factor.

With much less O/U time served, I'd be willing to bet a Beretta would be a good first choice in that category. Actually started out with one, a 20ga S687L that unfortunately had an unreliable sst and was shot more at Skeet than carried hunting. I've been shooting an older S58 Trap at clays, would not mind trying one of the 20ga O/U again-maybe a BL-series.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:27 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 293
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

canvasback,

You are welcome to your opinion of both Euro guns and that particular Gun Smith, IMO they are both wrong. We definitely differ greatly in our opinions. Further there is no such thing as an Unbiased opinion, that premise is false to begin with, especially where double guns are concerned. The title of the thread is a false narrative setting the stage to present this particular guns smiths very biased opinion. I willingly admit I am biased, never said I wasn't.

Dale is absolutely correct, these are all personal opinions, no matter who they come from. No need to get bent out of shape because somebody has a different opinion than yours.

L.C. Smith Ameria's Best - John Houchins

Pine Creek/Dave

One of L.C. Smith's very Best from Houchin's - The Legend Lives Book.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/52109_600x400/] [/URL]


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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The only real problem I had with my BL series was light hammer strikes after years of frequent use. Of all things, the cocking bar return spring was broken and the hammer would strike it on the way to the firing pin, thus reducing impact and resulting in a "misfire".

As far as those Brit and Euro guns are concerned, they are magnificent but when a broken part needs replacing, it's not always available. I can make my own, but that doesn't help other shooters. There is always a down side to everything, parts can be one. I know the frustration, I work on old cars. Two days ago I customized a 64 Galaxie fuel tank for a guy because you can't buy a tank for a 59 Edsel.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WYOChukar,

A true Master Gun Maker eliminates these problems, the cost however for his talents may be a completely different matter. I recommend Rich Painter, he or Freddie Brunner when you need a fine double gun worked on.

Pine Creek/Dave


Some of Rich Painter's fine work, fitting an old Pre 13 set of Smith/Krupp Barrels on to one of our 1913 L.C. Smith Field Grade Breech work. A job for a true Master Gun Maker. Every set of Elsie Pre 13 Barrels was individually made for it's original gun Breech, installing the Barrels on a different Elsie Breech work is no small chore.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/52110_600x400/] [/URL]

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Rick O
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:17 pm  Reply with quote
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...I like 16 gauge Model 21's

For me, they feel good in my hands, come up and swing nice and I shoot them well.

I almost wish I'd never bought one though, because, for a lifelong pump and primarily Model 12 shooter, more and more I find myself taking the double and leaving the pumps behind...

I will confess though, that I am not all that well rounded, having probably not seen much less held or fired any of "The Other" American Doubles...
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kgb
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:13 am  Reply with quote
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WyoChukar wrote:
The only real problem I had with my BL series was light hammer strikes after years of frequent use. Of all things, the cocking bar return spring was broken and the hammer would strike it on the way to the firing pin, thus reducing impact and resulting in a "misfire".


My gun is an ejector model and has right/left bars and levers with accompanying springs. One spring was bent a bit and although there were no malfunctions I bought replacement springs from Cole. When I later disassembled the trigger mechanism I found the sear spring was tweaked and Cole had one of those as well.

For a Trap gun this S58 is pretty light. Stocked high with a MC comb and plenty tight chokes it's comfortable using light loadings from Federal and Fiocchi of 7/8oz 8s at 1200fps. 1oz target loads are only comfortable for 50 shots or so. A scaled down 20ga or even 28ga version of these guns might carry as nicely as a Model 12.

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gunsrus
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:58 am  Reply with quote
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When not hunting with my A grade Philly Fox 16 gauge , I have in my hands either a BL4 in 20 or 28 . They are a delight to carry and shoot grouse and wood cock with 3/4oz loads . The 28's have become very rare but the 20's do show up from time to time .
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:38 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Rick O,

16 Double guns become addicting, and the Model 12 ends up being left behind for sure. However we have a few girls who hunt Grouse with us that love the old 16 M12. Mine has a Choke that has been opened to C, and the girls think they are Annie Oakley with her. They also like how light the gun is to carry, especially on the longer Grouse hunts. I have to admit I hardly pick the old M12 up any more myself, I agree with you 100%. Nothing beats a double gun for Grouse and Woodcock hunting.

RGD/Dave

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:19 am  Reply with quote
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Quote:
there is no such thing as an Unbiased opinion, that premise is false to begin with


No student of logic would say that. My own personal observance, which is not an opinion any more so than Vicknair's was, is that Vicknair's statements are based on facts -- technical facts of gun design -- easily seen by those of such knowledge. Whether or not this raises the hackles of an enthusiast of any particular brand, it should not deter that enthusiast from expounding the virtues he perceives in his favorite brand, L.C. or whatever, and it hasn't. What bothers me is the denigration of a man whose statements are based on technical info by those whose arguments are based on brand enthusiasm. These people label the facts as opinions, while presenting their own biased opinions as facts.

I know, I know -- Dewey's facts bruised egos of certain brand enthusiasts. One would think, however, that a secure and dedicated brand enthusiast would not need to put up such a stout defense. It should be more like, "Facts be damned, we love the guns of our choice for good reasons, and so do many others," and then be done with it.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 647
Location: Hudson,Wy

The fact that the old guns are still around is argument enough to their merits. I know my favorites and obviously the Smith camp has theirs. I like L.C.'s just fine. I just like certain others more.
I can't stand Chevrolet in general, but do admire some of their past work. I would happily own a 59 El Camino, even with design flaws. I can also appreciate a nice gun, even if it does have a few quirks to address.
The point is, we will never see carefully crafted double guns built in numbers in this country again. Cherish the ones that were.

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