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Griffon
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:55 am  Reply with quote



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Been through CSMC factory with Louie their head salesman, all parts for the RBL are made there.

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Winchester21
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:36 pm  Reply with quote
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To answer the original question: No, Browning BSS's were never made in 16ga, only 12 and 20. The 20ga field models tended to be heavy (for that gauge) coming in at 7lbs +/-. My 12ga with 28" brls weighs 7lbs 8oz. Very nice guns.
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Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:52 pm  Reply with quote
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Find the right SKB 12 and you're in good shape.

[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pmfdBlrMj] [/URL]
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pn5LrvPRj] [/URL]
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:29 pm  Reply with quote
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fred lauer wrote:
Specifically where did you get the information that SKB made barrels for Connecticut Shotgun???


Not SKB barrels Fred. CSMC buys (or used to buy) unfinished (rough) SKB receiver and barrel blocks plus forend irons. They machine the rough parts to their own specs and configurations. Most likely they also buy barrel stock and assorted parts like rib stock etc, turn the barrels, then match and fit them into the barrel blocks to be assembled and finished. At least this is how they used to manufacture their SxS guns. I believe they still do.

CSMC may now be sourcing the rough receiver and barrel blocks manufactured elsewhere than SKB out of Japan. The Turkish gun industry has stepped into the parts business, and has taken some of the customers away from the Japanese. Even so, the different companies within the Japanese gun industry have continued to cooperate with each other and have continued to provide a wide assortment of parts at affordable prices for each other and for other gun manufacturers all over the world as well as producing finished guns for a number of brands like Browning.

CSMC may have invested in the machinery and tooling to make their own receivers, barrels, and all other parts in house now, but that would be a tremendously expensive investment for a small manufacturer like them. They fill a niche and seem to do it well, but they are still a small company in the scheme of things.

This is exactly how many small gun manufactures operate today (all claims of everything being made in house to the contrary). None of these companies are required to divulge how they operate to the public. None are above having Madison Ave types spin the advertisements to suit their clients' needs. It's the bottom line that dictates the process, not the advertising.

That's just business and always has been. Besides, what difference does it really make if the products are well made from good stock. It has always been the end products vs the profits that counts in any business and always will be.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:21 pm  Reply with quote
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Dave Erickson wrote:
Find the right SKB 12 and you're in good shape.

[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pmfdBlrMj] [/URL]
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pn5LrvPRj] [/URL]


Don't forget the SKB 20 gauge SxS models as well. They are delightful to carry and shoot. I know. I own one of the Ithaca SKB Model 100 SxS guns (but I still wish it was a 16). Very Happy
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:48 pm  Reply with quote
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An addendum to my previous post regarding the RBL shotguns:

Did Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing Company buy a gun line to produce the Model 21 Over & Under?

YES, in 1996, we purchased the Model 21 division from U.S. Repeating Arms Company, and we received all the tools, fixtures, and processes to build the gun.


Yup. CSMC bought the original Kodensha Model 500/ Winchester 101 /Golden Eagle O/U shotgun (same gun) machinery and tooling which was brought over from Japan by Olin. Olin was a main investor in Kodensha going back to the late 1960s. Olin wanted a line of Japanese O/U imports to compete with Miroku and SKB. Kodensha also produced the Winchester Model 23 SxS guns for Olin, with the assistance and cooperation of a couple of other Japanese gun/gun parts manufacturers including Miroku.

The price CSMC got the whole Model 101 shebang for was very low considering the condition of the goods and the fact that Olin wrote it all off as a loss. The same deal today would most likely be prohibitively expensive all things considered.

Kodensha closed their doors in the late 1980's or early 1990's. The property was bought, the buildings razed, and a three tier golf driving range was built and still occupies the spot. Golf's real big in Japan.
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fred lauer
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:14 pm  Reply with quote
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As a retired steel mill machinist I am well aware of the global market for various grades of steel. We often machined parts from imported stock. I sort of got lost in the story about the Model 21 Winchester because the Model 21 was only built in New Haven not Japan. The machinery for the 101 and 23 undoubtedly had to come from Japan because the guns were marked as such but that does not include the Model 21 Winchester. The Model 21 over under is a whole different breed of cat and is more in line with Italian o/u designs. The reason I asked for specific information is because it appears that there seems to be a couple of stories being somehow incorrectly mixed. Not trying to be a wise guy but looking for some specific information that I may not have been aware of.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Sorry to confuse you Fred. CSMC named their 101 based O/U the Model 21. Don't ask me why. Probably a marketing strategy based on association, not fact. It's slick marketing spin to sell the gun to folks who don't know the diff. But we do. Very Happy

Addendum 10/21/17 from the SKB Story on their wbsite:

In 2008, the economic turmoil started by the loan failures in the U.S. housing industry, began to take on global consequences and spilled over into other industries slowing demand and production. The SKB factory found itself in a situation where importers were cancelling orders, and its aging workforce had little interest in continuing operations. Since it did not appear that there was going to be quick recovery in the global economy, the decision to close the factory was made in late 2009.

In 2010, during the closure process of the factory, G.U. Inc. purchased the remaining inventory of parts, the shotgun schematic and production drawings and the SKB brand name from the Japanese. The intent was to find a European manufacturer to replicate the Japanese designs. After several years of searching, and multiple meetings with several manufacturers, it was determined that the initial investment for tooling no longer made this a viable option.


So SKB shotguns are not made in Japan anymore. They are now being made in Turkey. This begs the question. Where has the machinery and tooling for the Japanese made SKB double guns gone? Something tells me CSMC is a good candidate for where it ended up. If so, then Griffon could very well be correct. I'd not be surprised given the history of CSMC and their penchant for obtaining unused Japanese made machinery and tooling for shotgun manufacturing.

It also bodes well for the future value of my 20 gauge Ithaca SKB Model 100.
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tselliott
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:56 pm  Reply with quote



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How about a CZ ringneck with 28" barrels it comes with IC & Mod chokes if you need more chokes send it to Briley MFG for thin wall choke tubes. Good luck T. S. Elliott,

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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:59 am  Reply with quote
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SKB machinery to CSMC, being used in the production of RBL's? That theory runs into a chronology bump in the road. Production of the RBL--which certainly has a strong SKB "heritage"--began in 2009. Per the above SKB history from Guns Unlimited, the SKB factory in Japan didn't close until 2010. Would not make much sense for CSMC to have purchased the SKB tooling and machinery AFTER they'd already started producing the RBL. And since the Turkish SKB's are very different guns (other than the name) than the Japanese SKB's, it would appear they didn't buy the machinery and tooling either.
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Savage16
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:30 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy wrote:
Dave Erickson wrote:
Find the right SKB 12 and you're in good shape.

[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pmfdBlrMj] [/URL]
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pn5LrvPRj] [/URL]


Don't forget the SKB 20 gauge SxS models as well. They are delightful to carry and shoot. I know. I own one of the Ithaca SKB Model 100 SxS guns (but I still wish it was a 16). Very Happy


+1 on what 16GG says on the 20 ga SKB's. Recently got a 280e with 28 in tubes and a thin wristed English stock. Weighs in at @ 6 1/4. Likewise wish they made it in 16ga. Only "fault" is single trigger.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:22 pm  Reply with quote
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Larry Brown wrote:
SKB machinery to CSMC, being used in the production of RBL's? That theory runs into a chronology bump in the road. Production of the RBL--which certainly has a strong SKB "heritage"--began in 2009. Per the above SKB history from Guns Unlimited, the SKB factory in Japan didn't close until 2010. Would not make much sense for CSMC to have purchased the SKB tooling and machinery AFTER they'd already started producing the RBL. And since the Turkish SKB's are very different guns (other than the name) than the Japanese SKB's, it would appear they didn't buy the machinery and tooling either.


Yes Larry, the RBL and the SKB SxS models are basically the same design w/ some minor modifications. In 2009, the RBL started out originally being built on unfinished SKB SxS frames and barrel blocks (just the blocks--not completed 16ga barrels Fred) plus other related parts obtained from SKB. This was after 2008 when SKB was being reorganized, manufacturing in Japan was winding down, and was finally discontinued altogether. It fits the timeline very nicely don't you think?

Later in this topic, Griffon stated he's been through the Connecticut factory and has been informed that all RBL parts are now manufactured in house. If so, then where did they get the machinery and tooling to do so and when?

It's my guess most of it came from the closed (or very soon to be closed) SKB facility along w/ a supply of surplus unfinished frames etc. I'm basing my hunch on their previous purchase of the Kodensha machinery and tooling (and surplus unfinished parts) to begin manufacturing the 101/ 21 O/U Models after Kodensha went under.

My hunch fits the time line, and it makes sense financially. I would not doubt it a bit that CSMC might begin to manufacture another O/U model based on the SKB O/U design as well. The tooling and unfinished parts for an O/U model could have been purchased along w/ the SxS tooling and parts. Why not? Anyway, it's just a hunch, but I think it's a very good one.
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XJ1996
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:11 pm  Reply with quote



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16GG,

I've never seen a mono blocked RBL barrel set in any gauge. It is my understanding that the RBL series of guns uses a shoe lump barrel set. Please see the video on CSMC website RE RBL construction if it still exists. Conversely I've not seen a modern, (1960's and up) SKB barrel set with other than mono block construction. Could you clarify this?
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:04 pm  Reply with quote
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XJ1996 wrote:
16GG,

I've never seen a mono blocked RBL barrel set in any gauge. It is my understanding that the RBL series of guns uses a shoe lump barrel set. Please see the video on CSMC website RE RBL construction if it still exists. Conversely I've not seen a modern, (1960's and up) SKB barrel set with other than mono block construction. Could you clarify this?


I think we would do well to look first at the RBL receiver. If you thoroughly compare it w/ an SKB SxS receiver, I think you will find the similarity striking. I had this pointed out to me several years ago. I also remember casually reading an article in a double gun journal from around 2010 which stated the two guns share the same receiver design. I just can't recall exactly which journal that was or what issue it was.

I very much doubt CSMC would scrap any of the existing SKB receivers they may have acquired when they imported the old SKB equipment and tooling. As long as the unfinished receivers were well made, it wouldn't make much sense financially. So I assumed the RBL was also using any of the existing SKB barrel blocks made for the receivers. Obviously, my assumption was incorrect.

Even so, I suspect it is entirely possible to fit either type of of barrel block to the same receiver design as long as the barrel under lugs are designed to fit the locking lugs. So it is possible the CSMC RBL barrels are made to fit the SKB design type receivers now being manufactured in house on the imported SKB tooling and equipment. Once again, this would make a lot of sense financially.

Perhaps it's best to also keep in mind that any type of double gun barrel making is a very specialized process which requires specialized tooling, equipment, and know how. The set up would require quite a monetary investment and would require very skilled personnel if the barrels are to be well made and accurate. So this begs the question of just how and where CSMC barrels are being manufactured. If it's in house, then where did the tooling, equipment, and highly skilled personnel come from?

Also, would it be possible to modify and machine a monoblock design in such a way as to accept shoe lumps fitted and attached afterward? If so, then are the RBL barrels being built on a modified monoblock design w/ shoe lumps instead of being made w/ half lumps of some type? I doubt it would be too difficult to mask the line where the barrel tubes are fitted into the monoblocks if the fitting is done tightly w/ no gaps. (I am given to understand my Merkel SxS has barrels w// shoe lumps. I will examine my gun closely to see what's up here).

Even so after all the dust settles, in my opinion, it does not really matter which barrel design is used to manufacture the RBL Models as long as the barrels are well made and and are accurate. Anyone who owns a much used SKB SxS like mine made in the early 1970s knows the receiver design is an excellent one that has obviously proven itself for nearly half century. So all the really matters is how well CSMC is making their guns. As far as I know, they are doing a very good job of it. I've not been questioning this at all.
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