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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Recoil operated shotguns |
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Posted:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:36 pm
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Joined: 25 Sep 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Southeast
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I am recopying something I saw on the I'net last night. Copy follows:
"Therefore, recoil operated firearms work best with a cartridge that yields a momentum approximately equal to that for which the mechanism was optimized"
My question is, "just how is this optimization determined"? Did the manufacturer suggest this or perhaps is this left to the legions of persons that do their own
loading?
Thank you, Linn |
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Posted:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:04 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy
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Veryoldman wrote: |
I am recopying something I saw on the I'net last night. Copy follows:
"Therefore, recoil operated firearms work best with a cartridge that yields a momentum approximately equal to that for which the mechanism was optimized"
My question is, "just how is this optimization determined"? Did the manufacturer suggest this or perhaps is this left to the legions of persons that do their own
loading?
BS, what that is saying in more words than necessary is that you have to have a round go off with enough force to operate the mechanism.
Not rocket science.
Dale
Thank you, Linn
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_________________ One man with courage makes a majority.
...Andrew Jackson... |
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Posted:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:43 am
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Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 133
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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The shotguns were "optimized" for the ammo that was in production when they were designed.... so like Dale said, if you are going to load lighter, you need to find a load that meets the amount of force needed to still operate the action. In the long recoil auto-5 type actions part of the "optimization" is the friction ring position. Oiling or removing oil from the magazine tube also allows you to "optimize" for your load. With the Benelli system, Either you have enough momentum to compress the spring to unlock the action, or you don't. Load adjustment is the only answer that I know of.
Phil |
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Posted:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:43 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 328
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Over a hundred years old, and the brilliance of Mr Browning is still showing through. |
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Posted:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:51 pm
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Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3185
Location: NCWa
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I don't know what process FN/Browning used to calibrate the A5 mechanism, but at least on the Light twelve that my dad had, there was a split ring that went on the magazine tube. If placed in one way it had less friction and allowed the action to cycle with light ammo. If the ring was inverted the friction was increased and the action would cycle with heavy loads. the gun was made in 1953 and last I heard it was still operating as designed. |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:58 pm
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Joined: 25 Sep 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Southeast
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Had 2 boxes of RST ammo and one of Fiocchi Performance follows:
Box 1 RST length of round 2 1/2 , load 7/8oz, Shot 8, velocity 1125
Performance Unacceptable, all attempts jammed with first shot
Box 2 RST(marked by RST as A5) length of round 2 1/2, load 1 oz, shot 8, velocity 1200
Performance Unacceptable, all attempts jammed with first shot
Box 3 Fiocchi length 2 3/4, load 1 oz, Shot 8, velocity 1165
Performance Totally acceptable. Absolutely ripped 3 rounds more than once with not even a hint of jamming
Comments
Before attempting any shots I put a drop of oil on the magazine tube
All shots were taken at "light" setup Didn't have time to try "heavy" setup
Conclusion So far, use Fiocchi |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:13 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 989
Location: Las Vegas
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Interesting. Thr RST A5 load didn't work? I think it's 1 OSU at 1200 fps.?
Matt |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:24 pm
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Joined: 25 Sep 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Southeast
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That is correct I intend at first opportunity to set the recoil mech on heavy and see what happens
I haven't given up on the A5 1200 ammo, will continue to evaluate
Thr RST A5 load didn't work? I think it's 1 OSU at 1200 fps.?
Matt[/quote] |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:26 am
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Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 328
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So the 2.75 hull you tried worked and the 2-2.5 loads didn't. Interesting. |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:26 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 2357
Location: West MI
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Just a thought, before oiling the tube did you thoroughly clean the friction ring and tube with something that would cut through any old gummy oil?
Do you have an O/U or SxS? If so and you shoot the same 3 different shells do you notice any recoil differences? I know some shells by nature have very different felt recoil all else (internal ballistics) being equal. RGL's to my shoulder have a much sharper recoil than most others and a bud who shoots Fio's reports the same "sharpness" when he uses them. |
_________________ Sorry, I'm a Duck Hunter so shouldn't be held strictly responsible for my actions between Oct 1st and ice up. |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:09 am
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Joined: 25 Sep 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Southeast
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Didn't notice any difference in recoil.
Gun had been to Art's for a strip and clean-probably in the best shape it had been in for a while Art suggests going from light to heavy setting for evaluation I have to drive a couple of hours to do this so it make take a while |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:19 am
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Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 601
Location: Virginia
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I've never had any luck with less than 1 oz shot in my two Sweet Sixteens nor my Sportsman 48. Just the way it is. |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:54 am
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Joined: 25 Sep 2017
Posts: 28
Location: Southeast
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Note that my one oz RST loads (2 1/2) jammed while1 oz Fiocci loads(2 3/4) worked fine Problem appears length related not weight related |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:14 pm
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Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Kentucky
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On all my recoil operated A-5 type guns I use the following ring setting on any load that would not operate the action when adjusted to the normal light load settings. The brass friction piece is moved next to the receiver. The steel friction ring is installed between the spring and the barrel lug with the flat side toward the barrel lug. This is a factory recommend setting in some early manuals. On one very light load in cold weather I had to remove the metal friction ring completely. I have worked on some A-5's that were shot for years with no friction pieces installed at all. They complained to me that they kicked too hard!
Tom |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:28 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348
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I don't see anywhere where the OP mentions what GUN he's shooting? How can there be a discussion on ammo not functioning... if we don't even know what gun it's being shot out of?
Maybe an Auto 5? Maybe an 11-48? Maybe something else. How's the gun function with other loads? How's it work with Herters, or Federal, 1oz or 9/8oz?
In any case, if it's an Auto 5, then I'd think with all of them out there someone here could just say what loads work well in the gun-- what's it take to make the thing function reliably, in payload weight and speed? |
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