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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:40 pm  Reply with quote



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Location: SE Ks

I've seen DogChaser and others mention using the Tyvek Seal from Precision Reloading under a wad to stave off powder migration with fine grained powders in straight wall cases. My question is how do you put the thing in the case?
I've been playing with Longshot in the Federal case with a Rem SP-16 wad. When I can get the Tyvek Seal seated on the powder before the wad, I haven't been able to induce any powder migration. I've pounded the shell on the bench, shook it up violently and about anything else I can think of and a strong light through the side of the case doesn't show any migration. Problem is getting the seal to sit on the powder flat. It's so flimsy it just turns sideways if I use the ram on my MEC Sizemaster. If I put the seal in the wad guide with the SP-16 on top of it, most of them turn as well. I've been putting them in by hand and pushing them down slowly with a 7/16 nut driver, it just fits in the case. Some of them can be a total pain in the rear.
What's the secret here, anybody found one that works?
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mike campbell
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:01 pm  Reply with quote
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I can't answer the question, but I'd consider a PM to Mark.

When I toyed with the issue a few years back I was building 12ga spreader loads in transparent hulls. The wad of choice was slightly undersized and I could see powder wafted up around the wad form the expulsion of air as it was seated. The first success I had was to wipe silicon grease around the wad with my fingertip. Then I got nervous about the grease contaminating the powder (maybe unfounded).

I did like the "sticky" approach so I switched to a single wrap of double-sided scotchtape. It added only .006" to the wad diameter, didn't hinder seating, cheap, easy, and stopped the migration.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Since I will only use the SP16 in a Federal or Cheddite hull for hunting loads, I insert the Tight Seal by hand and seat it on top of the powder with a wooden dowel. Then I use my Sizemaster to finish the shell. It does take time but for a few boxes of hunting ammo once a year it is no big deal.....at least not for me.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:33 pm  Reply with quote
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Hmmmmmmm sticky???? I bet that the round sticky dots that are made paper would stick perfectly to the bottom an SP16 and you could insert them with the machine .........Thanks for the idea Mike Campbell!!

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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 169
Location: Ohio

Couldn't you just drop back a grain of powder and use a gas seal or over powder card wad?
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 213
Location: missouri

Ohio Wirehair wrote:
Couldn't you just drop back a grain of powder and use a gas seal or over powder card wad?

Think this was gone over on here already however even when facts are stated many won't listen.
Precisions Tight seal is meant to be used over shot charges to prevent buffer leakage not as an over powder seal.
Tyveks burn temperature is around 275 degrees while smokeless powder can burn at up to 3200 degrees.
Use of nitro card or gas seal would be more appropriate.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:12 am  Reply with quote
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While I am sure you are correct about the flammability of the tyvek......the ONLY reason for the tyvek is to stop powder migration BEFORE the round is fired. AND once the the load is fired the tyvek only sees the heat for 5 milliseconds. It is out the bore and gone and at that point I really couldn’t careless what happens to it as it has absolutely no effect on the firearm, hull or downrange ballistics.

The tyvek, as far as I know, has absolutely no sealing effect, nor does the SP16 need any help sealing the expanding powder gases.

I use these loads exclusively in a Remington 1100 gas operated shotgun and after using these loads for two years I see no evidence of melted tyvek in the bore, gas ports or action.

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fn16ga
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:10 pm  Reply with quote
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DC, thanks for the suggestion of the tight seal . I used them in LS/ CB wad load . loaded 2 boxes , I have ridden 1 box of shells upside down in my truck door for over a month now ( over 5000 miles )with no signs of powder migration so far . The other box I used for dove hunting with no signs of unusual residue in barrel other than what I'd normally get .

I put them in hull the same way you did with a wooden dowel .

Get fix for a real problem .
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:34 am  Reply with quote



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Dogchaser37 wrote:
While I am sure you are correct about the flammability of the tyvek......the ONLY reason for the tyvek is to stop powder migration BEFORE the round is fired. AND once the the load is fired the tyvek only sees the heat for 5 milliseconds. It is out the bore and gone and at that point I really couldn’t careless what happens to it as it has absolutely no effect on the firearm, hull or downrange ballistics.

The tyvek, as far as I know, has absolutely no sealing effect, nor does the SP16 need any help sealing the expanding powder gases.

I use these loads exclusively in a Remington 1100 gas operated shotgun and after using these loads for two years I see no evidence of melted tyvek in the bore, gas ports or action.

The point being if your going to get powder migration, especially in straight wall hulls using the SP-16 wad, then your going to get blow by also and theirs no guarantee the flimsy Tyvek seals will prevent powder migration 100%.
You could get the same effect of using the Tyvek Seal by using paper and putting over the powder charge, using a Gas Seal or Nitro Card over the powder charge will prevent powder migration and blow by plus make the load more efficient. You don't have to believe me just chronograph some loads using Tyvek vs the NC or GS and see which ones give you lower velocity spreads.
All you have to do is reduce down your powder charge a bit and your in business using a gas seal or nitro card..I've been doing it for years.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:51 am  Reply with quote
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If you reduce the powder charge you will reduce the velocity, so for my purposes that is not a satisfactory solution. I am using a method that doesn’t affect the velocity.

The BS that flows around the internet about wads and blow by is just that. Baker big bore barrels were .800” and there was never any problem with wads sealing.

If there were wad sealing problems with the SP16 you would never have a load that would be consistent, and that is definitely not the case. There are many good loads using the SP16 in Federal and Cheddite type hulls.



If you believe that I am getting powder migration using 800-X while using this method, you have a right to your opinion regardless of how misguided it might be.

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:37 am  Reply with quote



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Again use a chronograph and let us know your results.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:16 am  Reply with quote



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can sort of see both sides of this from an "it happened to me " side . Had a ton of Nitro 100 at the time and one of the early trips to moo . Right out of the book 1 oz load with Fed cases and sp's . Standing right next to Nick at the 1st blooper and after a 2nd , no longer used those shells - had others with me . Migration is one thing (inconsistent ) and blow by (bloopers ) another . If in fact the tyvek , or dots or whatever , stops migration , that's a good start . If it can help that wad seal , that's the winner . If I had any fine grained powder , I'd load up a bunch of loads for some skeet outings and try them both along with the chrono and see if I liked them either way .... Mark , most of the powders I use are 800X types , so I'm pretty safe - some of the specialty powders aren't big flake types and I'd be wary .

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mike campbell
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:13 pm  Reply with quote
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Dogchaser37 wrote:
...The tyvek, as far as I know, has absolutely no sealing effect, nor does the SP16 need any help sealing the expanding powder gases....


I'm on board with this.

I've shot and chronographed enough 16ga shells loaded with 20ga wads to know that very consistent velocities (and therefore gas seal) can be had as long as the powder stays behind the wad. No gas seals used/none needed. As long as the shells are boxed and shelved immediately they work fine. After bouncing around in the truck for a few thousand miles...not so good.

And ANYTHING that keeps the powder back of the wad until primer ignition ... Tyvek, paper or silicone grease ... will work. I've seen a lot of confetti come out of shells...but none of it was ever melted or burnt. Paper burns at only 450 degrees but paper cards and plastic wads don't seem to mind 3200 degrees ... I'll bet Tyvek doesn't either. Maybe it's because of the sub-millisecond exposure to flame....maybe because it's in an oxygen-starved atmosphere.


As to " inconsistent" versus "full blooper," I'm inclined to believe it's just a matter of degree. Let 10% of the powder migrate out of the powder chamber and I get inconsistent velocities that only the chronograph can detect. If 30% of the powder migrates I'll hear/feel a blooper, but is that because the wad didn't seal? or because it sealed just fine behind a 2/3 charge? I believe the latter.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:18 am  Reply with quote



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Mike , good post ... I Too have tried a lot of 20ga wads - gifts from the shooting gods - good results with RGL's . However , using fed 20's (same diam as SP's that I've checked ) failed miserably in my short Feds . once I get my 48 back in op , I'll see what I've got to help the seal and give more of them a whirl . Just for am FYI , have tried 12Ga Gualandi's in my 10 bore with some loads that migrated to me from this group , and they worked wonderfully - even 1ozers ... I doodle with this stuff because it comes to me and it's like cleaning your plate - got to use them . Now that we have the DR's and the G28 type G wads , you don't have to go that path if you don't want to . I just happen to have a bag and 1/2 of SP's and 1500 20 SI's , so they beckon !!

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mike campbell
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:57 am  Reply with quote
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Bill, sounds like you tried 20ga Fed wads in 16ga Fed hulls? I imagine they would be mighty loose and might actually fail to seal? I've only used the 20SG's in the RGL's and they are so loose, if you seat the wad and turn the hull upside down they will fall out. But they work just fine. Actually, too good. I've wanted to move on to the DR's and CB's for a few years now but still have too damned many of SG20's and no 20ga load I want to use them in.

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