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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 242

Thx for the reply Dogchaser, I understand... easy to read one sentence that gets you riled up in a post, then I read one sentence of yours, etc...

Anyways, your comments to Mike on the Ch209 primer are kinda where I also talked to him on. I think before he had the test results back I talked to him and said I thought 39 gr, softer primer maybe Win209 or CCI209, and a Roll Crimp are what I was going to send in as a 2nd try, if he didn't want to send in a 2nd attempt to get lower pressure. I figure a roll crimp would allow 1-3 gr increase from his 38gr load... I've got some 20ga 1oz steel loads at 35-38gr of LilGun, a series of 4 loads, and the RTO on the 38gr load gets me 75 fps faster than the 35 gr fold-crimp load, with the same pressure.

So in my mind, his 38gr load has several good investigation options to get maybe 100 fps more speed and stay in SAAMI MAP. (softer primer, RTO, possible hull swap depending on a volume test of Rio vs. cheddite vs. Fed).

Meanwhile, I'm tweaking my 410gr steel Asteel ch/ch209 load trying to move upwards in payload with alliant steel powder, and will likely try the same things with that load.

Unfortunately, just like Dogchaser, I decided last year that bismuth was a superior 16ga payload that gave me more pellets and let me use my old Mod12, so I've sat on 3 test loads all ready to go for over a year without sending them in. I also was leaning towards trying Tom instead of Precision this time.
Best regards,
Dave

p.s. I just received from FedEx today some boxes of 16ga Federal #8 ammo I ordered from Academy.com, the intent being to shoot it at skeet and then have the Federal empties for some steel-shot testing. Based on 16gaWaterfowler's info that the Fed hull will give a bit less pressure than the cheddite for loads I'm working on. Good price, $7.90 delivered or so.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:01 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 250
Location: missouri

Dogchaser37 wrote:
To mcrewz & DaveinAZ,

I kinda got carried away with my thoughts because Tom Armbrust is an old friend and a VERY good man and very good at what he does. When 16GAwaterfowler questioned Tom's results .......I was offended.

I get upset when someone questions Mr. Armbrust's findings, and not those imposters who parade themselves as THE AUTHORITY and present us with ridiculous loads that have never been tested.

I did not mean to denigrate mcrewz's work and I apologize to all that I have offended.

When exactly did I question Tom's results, the only ones I questioned were BPI's results which I constantly question. Think you better re read again, cool your jets and figure out that I was questioning BPI's original load data not Toms which I trust.
I've known Tom probably as long as you have and don't question his results.
As for the Powder choice I can agree Lil Gun once you get so large in bore size shows little to no gains over STEEL.
This is another reason I don't post much on this board !!!!!!!!!!
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 250
Location: missouri

16GAwaterfowler wrote:
Dogchaser37 wrote:
To mcrewz & DaveinAZ,

I kinda got carried away with my thoughts because Tom Armbrust is an old friend and a VERY good man and very good at what he does. When 16GAwaterfowler questioned Tom's results .......I was offended.

I get upset when someone questions Mr. Armbrust's findings, and not those imposters who parade themselves as THE AUTHORITY and present us with ridiculous loads that have never been tested.

I did not mean to denigrate mcrewz's work and I apologize to all that I have offended.

When exactly did I question Tom's results, the only ones I questioned were BPI's results which I constantly question. Think you better re read again, cool your jets and figure out that I was questioning BPI's original load data not Toms which I trust, and stop getting on peoples case when you can't read or comprehend the point that's actually being put across, or maybe I should have just put in easier, simpler terms to understand terns ..Toms Data was correct and BPI's was definitely off even with the difference in shot types. OKEE DOkee???
I've known Tom probably as long as you have and don't question his results.
As for the Powder choice I can agree Lil Gun once you get so large in bore size shows little to no gains over STEEL.
This is another fine example of why I don't post much on this board !!!!!!!!!!
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 250
Location: missouri

Dogchaser37 wrote:
To mcrewz & DaveinAZ,

I kinda got carried away with my thoughts because Tom Armbrust is an old friend and a VERY good man and very good at what he does. When 16GAwaterfowler questioned Tom's results .......I was offended.

I get upset when someone questions Mr. Armbrust's findings, and not those imposters who parade themselves as THE AUTHORITY and present us with ridiculous loads that have never been tested.

I did not mean to denigrate mcrewz's work and I apologize to all that I have offended.

When exactly did I question Tom's results, the only ones I questioned were BPI's results which I constantly question. Think you better re read again, cool your jets and figure out that I was questioning BPI's original load data not Toms which I trust, and stop getting on peoples case when you can't read or comprehend the point that's actually being put across, or maybe I should have just put in easier, simpler terms to understand terns ..Toms Data was correct and BPI's was definitely off even with the difference in shot types. OKEE DOkee???
I've known Tom probably as long as you have and don't question his results.
As for the Powder choice I can agree Lil Gun once you get so large in bore size shows little to no gains over STEEL.
This is another fine example of why I don't post much on this board !!!!!!!!!!
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:51 am  Reply with quote
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16GAwaterfowler wrote

Quote:
..........but as I stated if the load was only 9400 psi to start with I don't see how Tom got over 13,000 psi with 1 ounce of steel shot.


The above is what upset me.

I get it, 16GAwaterfowler. Emotion over intellect, gets me in trouble more than I care to admit.

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 250
Location: missouri

Dogchaser37 wrote:
16GAwaterfowler wrote

Quote:
..........but as I stated if the load was only 9400 psi to start with I don't see how Tom got over 13,000 psi with 1 ounce of steel shot.


The above is what upset me.

I get it, 16GAwaterfowler. Emotion over intellect, gets me in trouble more than I care to admit.

Maybe I may have worded it wrong , what I was stating was how did BPI get 9400 psi with the original load when Tom got over 13,000 psi with the steel shot load.
From my Pressure Trace readings there's the 10-15% difference between HW/ITX and steel shot loads of the same weight and I gave BPI 20% difference. There's no way BPI's ITX load was 9400 psi which I was trying to say.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:22 am  Reply with quote
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Cool Cool Cool

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:36 pm  Reply with quote
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DANGER - DO NOT USE THESE 16 GAUGE STEEL LOADS, BECAUSE THEY EMPLOY PRIMERS AND POWDER THAT ARE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE - I AM POSTING THESE LOADS BECAUSE OF INTEREST EXPRESSED BY MEMBERS OF THE 16 GAUGE SOCIETY - IF YOU PLAN ON USING THESE LOADS THEY MUST BE RETESTED USING CURRENTLY AVAILABLE COMPONENTS.

CAUTION - THE CCI209M PRIMERS LISTED BELOW ARE THE OLDER STYLE PRIMERS ACTUALLY MADE BY CCI. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PRIMERS CURRENTLY SOLD UNDER THE CCI NAME MADE BY FEDERAL.

CAUTION - THE STEEL POWDER LISTED BELOW IS FROM A VERY EARLY LOT (Lot # 002) OF STEEL POWDER. IT IS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT THAN THE STEEL POWDER CURRENTLY BEING SOLD.

IMPORTANT - B & P GAS SEALS MEAN BASCHERI & PELLAGRI(NOT BPI) - THEY ARE AVAILABLE FROM PRECISION RELOADING LLC

CAUTION - The .010 Mylar wrap will exhibit pellet rub through when using shot sizes larger than #2 steel shot. Going to a thicker Mylar wrap may/will increase chamber pressure. In my personal shotguns I never used shot sizes larger than #3 with either load.


Federal 16 ga 2 3/4" w/paper basewad hull
CCI209 Powder
29.5 Grains Steel Powder
B & P 16 ga gas seal + 1 1/4" x 4 1/8" .010" thick Mylar wrap
1 oz Steel shot

1,406 FPS 10,500 PSI
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winchester 16 2 3/4" 2 pc Plastic hull (Cheddite)
CCI209M Primer
32.0 Grains Steel Powder
B & P 16 ga gas seal + 1 1/4" x 4 1/8" .010" thick Mylar wrap
1 oz Steel shot

1,491 FPS 10,700 PSI

I have always wanted to publish these loads, because they pattern well and are very consistent. My hesitation has been the pellet rub through with larger shot sizes. I hope they are a good starting point.

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 242

Great info, thanks very much for posting these, Mark!

So with the mylar wrap, it just sits nicely on top of the B&P gas seal and gets pushed up the barrel like wad sides? Sounds like it's wrapped twice? (2*pi*r for 16ga is 2.07")
B & P 16 ga gas seal + 1 1/4" x 4 1/8" .010" thick Mylar wrap

I've used mylar wraps but always in addition to a wad when I felt it was thin or > #3 shot or small HW shot that might sneak through the slits, but never seen it as a sole barrel protector. It's very interesting, was this a technique that was looked at early on when good wads didn't exist?

Also, was the first load a CCI209 or a CCI209M? I've got both of those from around 1991, a few sleeves left of old ones.

Thx
Dave
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:51 pm  Reply with quote
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It was CCI209M.

The Mylar gets pushed out of the barrel, as it sits on top of the gas seal.

There might have been the 16 ga BPI wad but the loads were built for loading data for Precision Reloading......that would have been a problem!!

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:11 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 250
Location: missouri

As I remember BPI used Lot 2 with some 10 gauge loads suggesting up to 62 grains of powder with some loads. The difference between Lot 2 and later lots is so great some people actually blew up a few 10 gauge guns using later Lots of STEEL with the Lot 2 data, yes I saw pictures and actually knew someone it happened to.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:46 am  Reply with quote
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Well, Lot #002 wasn't the problem.

BPI and their"computer generated data"(BPI's admission) was the problem.

It still is the problem.

Steel did not actually change until the early - mid 2000's. Even then it was only a few grains different. The amount you use, is within a few grains of the original lots, but the velocity is higher.

Even if you went by old data you can't blow up or even damage a shotgun, with the new lots over the old.

If you could, I wouldn't have posted those loads.

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 250
Location: missouri

Dogchaser37 wrote:
Well, Lot #002 wasn't the problem.

BPI and their"computer generated data"(BPI's admission) was the problem.

It still is the problem.

Steel did not actually change until the early - mid 2000's. Even then it was only a few grains different. The amount you use, is within a few grains of the original lots, but the velocity is higher.

Even if you went by old data you can't blow up or even damage a shotgun, with the new lots over the old.

If you could, I wouldn't have posted those loads.
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m31rem
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:21 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Sep 2017
Posts: 13
Location: California

Since California is going to non toxic shot for all hunting in 2019 I need to start building some loads that will be legal. I'm thinking 7/8 oz of #6 or #7 steel shot.
Has anybody been down this road?
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 10:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 242

m31rem wrote:
Since California is going to non toxic shot for all hunting in 2019 I need to start building some loads that will be legal. I'm thinking 7/8 oz of #6 or #7 steel shot.
Has anybody been down this road?


There are plenty of 7/8 oz 16ga steel loads. You can load #6 and #7 steel in them, smaller shot than a tested size is usually less pressure. And of course there thousands and thousands of posts on hunting and shotgun forums on folks using steel shot on various birds/upland-game.

I'd just pick a load you like for 7/8oz steel, the yahoo group files have many listed as does Lyman. However, all the fastest (best) ones are on the VP80 wadsheet, or in the BPI Advantages book. Then read a few threads on what size works with your target animal and go to town Wink
-- commercial #4 steel works for ducks to 30 yards, maybe a bit more on exposed vitals. It would of course also work on pheasant, and larger game birds like grouse.
-- #4 steel would work on rabbit
--#5-7 steel would work on smaller game birds and close rabbit
-- #7 steel is often used for dove and quail, of course ranges are closer than lead use.
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