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Ducks Rx
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Oct 2015
Posts: 77

Just traded for AyA 4/53 in 20 gauge to go along with my Webley Scott 16 ga. The 20 weighs 5 lb 10 oz. I am loading some 3/4 oz light loads for Skeet and works well. I have shot a few Remington gun clubs 7/8 oz @ 1200 fps and the recoil is very sharpe and occasionally jars safety back on?? I would like to reload some 7/8 oz loads for hunting wild quail but maybe 1150 FPS and low psi
Thanks in advance for any suggestions
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Upland Carpenter
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Why the desire for low pressure loads in your AyA?

Did a quick check on Hodgdon's site- 38 loads listed for 7/8oz @ 1100/1150 fps with a Remington STS hull. 8900psi/Universal load was the lowest. Didn't check other hulls.

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Ducks Rx
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:26 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Oct 2015
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Main reason is the safety returning to safe position from recoil of gun clubs and also tried fiocchi vip target load. Doesn’t do it with 3/4 oz reloads
Guess may have gunsmith check out. I just soon reload my hunting loads and avoid having to send gun away
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skeettx
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Win AA hull 20 gauge
7/8 oz lead shot

Winchester 572, 16.0 grains Win. 209, Rem. RXP20, 7,200 PSI, 1,150

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Upland Carpenter
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:45 pm  Reply with quote
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I'd have the gun looked at by a competent gunsmith. It sounds as if something is up with the mechanics of the safety if it is re-engaging during recoil. A lower pressure load should make no difference. It's the recoil generated acting on the safety. Doesn't matter if it's a 7/8oz/1200fps load at 11,000psi or 7,000psi.

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old colonel
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:37 pm  Reply with quote
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Concur that felt recoil is principally the function of the weight and speed of the payload, not pressure. Some variation can be attributed to the speed of acceleration, but that is minor and most of us cannot truly perceive that.

There are other factors that effect recoil, but the easiest to manipulate is shot load weight and velocity

The classic rule of 96 which held the normal load should weigh 1/96th of the guns weight, in other words 7/8 ounce equals a 5 1/2 pound gun or 6 pounds for a 1 oz load is a good rule of thumb. It is not ironclad and I frequently violate it, shooting 1 1/8 loads and even a 1 1/4 through a 6 pound gun. Those loads are limited to hunting situations and are few and far between. Further in older light guns shooting very heavy loads could lead to stock damage.

Going to low pressure loads is normally linked to thinner minimum wall thickness. I note that low pressure loads are often dirtier loads. If you have good wall thickness then you don’t really go to low pressure.

I don’t mind dirtier loads as I shoot light old guns (Pre-WWII) that are not beefy thick walled like a Citori I once had.

One final note I try to shoot all my loads within a band of 1100-1150 FPS regardless of payload weight. I find 1100-1150 more than adequate for quail, dove, pheasants and Prairie Chicken.
.


Last edited by old colonel on Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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JNW
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN

What you want is a low velocity 7/8 oz load. As stated above Hodgdon has a bunch of 1100 and 1150 fps loads for STS and AA hulls. Otherwise, take your normal load and decrease powder by 1.5 to 2.0 grains. I’m sold on 3/4 oz 20 gauge loads and love them.
Pressure is not related to recoil - mass and velocity are. Look at all the formulas for recoil. If anyone wants to argue about pressure and recoil you will have to do it without me.
Jeff
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JNW
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:56 pm  Reply with quote



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Oh, and add the “Rule” of 96 to my list of accepted dogma that is bunk. Go ahead and shoot a box of 1oz loads through a 6 pound gun. Ouch! And why not the rule of 93, 85 or 102? Who the heck made that a rule? The same guys that determined the proper weight for guns of a given gauge?
Jeff
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
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JNW wrote:
Oh, and add the “Rule” of 96 to my list of accepted dogma that is bunk. Go ahead and shoot a box of 1oz loads through a 6 pound gun. Ouch! And why not the rule of 93, 85 or 102? Who the heck made that a rule? The same guys that determined the proper weight for guns of a given gauge?
Jeff


LOL, right?
Heck, the Rule of 100 is much better anyways!
1 oz load = 100 oz gun = 6.25 lbs...
that sounds just about perfect to me, just about every 20ga gun I own is 6.1-6.5 lbs, as well as 16ga guns, which are both nice platforms and weights for a 1oz load.

Hmm, the Rule of 111 could be better yet.
OTOH, if we were shooting Square Loads, then 1/96th might be about right. But while I am going to promulgate the Rule of 100 now, I would bet them guys just wanted to have a Rule with a "6" and a "9" in it...
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old colonel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:07 pm  Reply with quote
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While some if not most disagree with the rule of 96. I do not really see it as a “Rule” but as a good guide based on experience. When WW Greener, I think, threw it out there he was looking to game guns and not clays shooting.

I believe for game shooting it works well, in spite of violating it sometimes.

For clays heavier guns are obviously better suited,

More people than I believe a 6lb 16ga shooting 1 ounce of lead is a good choice.

As for square loads, I don’t believe in the myth

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
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I'll admit I've lately been reaching for my < 6lb 20ga and 28ga guns for game, when I'm walking a lot. So 96* 7/8oz = 5.25 lbs, or 1oz = 6lb. Hmm. Maybe that 96 is pretty accurate Wink
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JNW
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
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More appropriately, guidelines for weight of shot charge and gun weight should be calculated with volume of shooting in mind. 5 or 6 shots through a lightweight gun at game is tolerable. 2 boxes through that same gun at doves would be unpleasant for me. God forbid I needed that many shells to shoot 15 doves.
I guess I get pretty riled up when someone presents me with a “Rule”. I’m not much of a rule follower unless it makes sense to me. I once had a guy give me a pile of grief because I was shooting doves with a 12 gauge while he had a 20. Mine was a lightweight sxs game gun under 7 pounds and I had 7/8 oz loads. He had a 32” 20 gauge sporter that went about 7.5 pounds and he was shooting, I kid you not, 1.25 oz 3” 6 shot. He considered himself much more sporting as he was shooting subgauge.
I do say, I like Dave’s idea, but might we not make it the Suggestion of 100?
Regards,
Jeff

P.S. Remember the Pirate’s Code? They’re more like guidelines.
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

If the recoil from shot #1 is jarring your safety back "on" you've got a problem that requires a gunsmith's attention. There is no alternative. This is an unintended discharge waiting to happen.

A safety that can be jarred back "on" that easily can also be jarred "off" that easily. Jarring it "off" would take some impact or move-and-stop similar to the recoil of a shot. These seem most likely to occur in a situation where the gun is jostled somehow, either by you falling with it or dropping it, or it falling over from where it was leaning. It likely wouldn't happen while the gun was shouldered and you were aiming it. None of these are safe. Continuing to use the gun in this condition - which is what you appear to intend - will not get you any points from the Safety Patrol. In the unlikely event someone gets hurt and an attentive cop investigates, heaven forbid, you'd easily be looking at a criminal negligence charge.

Another way of looking at it - which is less expensive: a couple hundred bucks for a gunsmith to make it right, or defending one or more felony charges, with the downside of not only the charges, etc., but also the likely loss of your gun rights?

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