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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Posts: 815

After reading another forum about the old style mec crimp starter and the good words said about it I was interested after I run on to my 6 &8 star brass crimp starter. But didnt have the metal body. So i asked on another form if anyone had one i could purchase. Well a good fellow had the body and sold it to me. Got it yesterday. Took the plastic one off and retro fit it to my press which is not mec. Wow i forgot how well the crimps turn out. Much better than the plastic ones. Dont care for Hornady after trying this.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:07 am  Reply with quote
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I like those old metal MEC Spindex crimp starters as well. Though the guide ridges on the black plastic ones (3 on a 6-pointer) are an advantage in orientation, the dents/grooves they leave on the sides of the hulls initiate cracks in some hull materials, reducing hull life. Neither do I like the angle of crimp-start closure produced by the plastic ones, especially on the 28 gauge. If you adjust them down far enough to get a reliable crimp closure, the start goes into the shoulder of the crimp leaving them rippled and unsightly. This isn't a problem on all gauges. Mostly for me it is a 20, 28 and .410 problem. Nonetheless, I pick up metal Spindex crimp starters whenever I can. Folks on eBay tend to price them as if they were solid gold. I don't buy them there. If you keep your eyes open you'll find one for a good price.

It is difficult to find one in anything other than 12 gauge, of course (the gauge where you need one the least -- always works out that way, doesn't it Very Happy ), but the 12 gauge one works pretty well on 16 gauge hulls as is, and can be bushed to "center" even better on the 16, and up to the 20, and maybe even the 28 (haven't had to try that in 28 yet). I use a 20 gauge metal Spindex for my 24's -- Made a smaller centering ring -- works OK. One can always use the big brass crimp starter from BPI, but centering can be a problem on hulls not previously pie crimped. In my experience, however, there is no good way to adapt a metal Spindex from another gauge to the .410. The metal .410 Spindex has/needs a very small stamped steel or brass crimp-start piece, and even one for the 20 or 28 won't work. You've simply got to find one for the .410 if you want one.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:14 am  Reply with quote
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Just another thought -- maybe someday I'll try to thread the outside of the big brass crimp starter from BPI, and make up some centering bushings to screw onto it. Another thought -- rather than cut the discontinuous threads that would be necessary to cross the points of the BPI crimp starter, maybe I can make centering bushings for it that are a simple close slip fit, and hold them on with a set screw or something like that -- even the friction of an O-ring might suffice to retain such centering bushings.
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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:22 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 546
Location: Ohio

I've got a 20 with I believe the 6 point starter in it. Anyone wants it make me a offer,and no it's not gold. Laughing
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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Posts: 815

I was just lucky that i found my old starters 6&8 point. From my old mec years ago. Sure makes for good crimps. Specially on the 8 star. On all my new hulls I go with 8 star.
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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2015
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Maximum, what do you mean by the term bushed to center.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:18 am  Reply with quote
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Hammer Bill,

Let's define the "centering bushing" for you. First, in slight digression, I'll mention the original MEC crimp starters, that were fixed, non-rotating devices, much like the big brass one from BPI: https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Crown-Crimpers/products/931/ , only better, as the MEC crimp starter had a shallower angle. Additionally, those first MEC starters were threaded to accept the same ring used to resize the metal head of the hull, in the applicable gauge, as (Ta Daaa!) a "centering bushing". This centered the hull on the crimp starter, making sure the petals of the crimp were made symmetrical. This type of crimp starter did not become popular until the advent of plastic hulls. I know we did not have one on our first MEC 300 (the first MEC, I think) in the mid 1950's. It probably was not even introduced till plastic hulls came along (1959? - Remington). It was an optional device, and Dad had one on our next reloader, the 400 Super-Speeder. As you can imagine, with that resize ring (centering ring) in place, you couldn't see the "points" of the crimp starter to align them with the hull, so those starters usually had a mark on the outside indicating one of the points -- very nice. I still mark all my crimp starters that way, especially black plastic Spindex's. You can never trust any Spindex to orient itself 100% of the time, so any little bit of "help" improves your "good crimp" percentage.

The original Spindex crimp starter came along on the MEC 600. These could either be locked in one position by tightening down the outer housing of the assembly or allowed to "spin" to orient to the random placement of a previously fired hull, by keeping that outer housing loose. The original Spindex had many parts: a threaed base, a flat spacer, a pressed steel or brass crimp-forming piece, a centering bushing, and the outside housing, which, threaded to the base, held it all together. Your question, Hammer Bill, is what I meant by "bushed to center". That centering bushing I mentioned above in the assembly is the device I'm talking about. It was different for every gauge. I believe the outer housing was sized for the 10 gauge, and a bushing sized it for the 12 gauge, and I think the same bushing was also used for the 16, as I don't believe I've ever seen one for the 16 -- but the 16 was a bit of a rare bird, so I might be wrong on that. These bushings had a lead-in chamfer that helped feed the case into the crimp starter, too -- very nice, and better than the old fixed MEC crimp starters. The 20 gauge Spindex had all the same parts but a bushing of proper size, and also the pressed steel crimp-forming part was smaller and it rode in the recess of the bushing. The 28 used the same crimp-forming piece as the 20, but it rode in a properly sized 28 gauge bushing. On the .410 unit, the bushing and the pressed steel crimp-forming piece were both individually sized for the .410.

Anyway, back to "bushed to center". This is an important feature missing on the brass crimp starter from BPI. It does make a difference. If you obtain a 12 gauge Spindex of the original design (big chrome-plated metal), see if you can make a 16 gauge centering bushing. If you have centering difficulties with the brass BPI crimper, a centering bushing will eliminate that. Crimp start centering can also be influenced by stack up of manufacturing variances (tolerances) on presses -- e.g. is the shell lined up with the crimp-start station.

One knock on the original metal Spindex assembly is it slight non-reliability in spinning -- ironically, the major feature for which it was in fact developed!. The friction between the stamped steel or brass crimp forming device and the other parts was too great because the diameter of engagement of the parts was large, and the friction caused a fairly high torque resistance. It is important to reduce the "friction radius" of devices that are to pivot freely. The "needle" bearings of clocks and the sharp edges found in balance-type scales are examples of the small friction radius concept. I'm absolutely sure friction radius reduction was one reason for the introduction of the black Delrin crimp starter we see on the current MEC for the last 20 years or so -- a nice slick low-friction plastic part riding on a small diameter stud rotates much more reliably. Part count reduction, material, manufacturing process and purchasing costs must have been the major reasons for the introduction of the new plastic Spindex, but friction and function had to be important reasons also. I doubt if it was an "accident of design" that the plastic Spindex rides on a small pivot. Also beneficial to function, the plastic Spindex pivot is a spherical stud, which makes up for a multitude of potential alignment problems. My only complaints about the plastic Spindex are: 1) the alignement ridges inside sometimes damage hulls and 2) the angle of crimp start in some gauges, particularly the 28.

Cheers!
Tony
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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2015
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Tony, thanks for the information. Great help for understanding the development. I've got the 6 & 8 star in brass & steel. Yes I can see how the friction could be a problem. However mine is as you described by original starter on the 600. The metal parts all coming together. Which I adjusted mine to leave loose a bit. I have no problems with it. But if I do the first place I look at is the friction. If that happens I believe that part I can remedy.
Again thanks for the info. Bill Very Happy
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:58 am  Reply with quote
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Yup, Hammer Bill, just make sure the parts are shiny clean, smooth and free of burrs and corrosion. Be careful if you try lubrication. I've never lubed one of these original Spindexes, and I can't say whether light oil or some kind of grease or powdered graphite or motor mica would be better, or even help if the parts were nice and smooth. Certainly any lube should be used very sparingly to avoid a mess. If I lubed, I'd try a small amount of Molykote-G grease first https://krayden.com/molykote-g-rapid-plus/ -- magic stuff but black and evil to clean off things. Good luck!
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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2015
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Tony, I have some high polish wax the power companies developed for insulators. Rub very light amount on then buff it off. Makes things very slick. Many guys in my area use it for car wax. Don't stain or change color of plastic on outside of your car. Kinda expensive.
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