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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

talked to our res hillbilly a wk or so ago . he turned on to Bizz .12ga/1/2oz 9's . He has been duck hunting with this load - killing everything . Before you jump to conclusions , has been teaching some others to hunt and using this combo . They are doing as well . Just saying !! no magnumitis !! roto should have a sale on soon for Thanksgiving . (1600 fps ish)

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:26 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

This would be more informative if there were some ranges given, though I understand you probably didn't get them from your hillbilly friend. However, 1/2oz of Bi 9s is 335 pellets or so, and at 1600fps they have a 1.5" gel penetration (just used as a standard for comparison) of 12.4 yds.

Steel #4 at 1350fps, the 16ga commercial standard, has 28.4 yd for the same gel penetration.

I have never considered steel #4 at 1350 a "good" duck load, and so a bismuth load of wee 9s with 12yd range for body shots or so doesn't sound great either. If he's shooting them in the decoys, then with 335 pellets (a BUNCH!), you're pretty darn sure to get head/neck hits, so just using .75" gel penetration as a rough guess (based on what I see from a ton of dove calculations with what I'd expect is similar penetration requirements for a duck head/neck), I get around 33 yds. That's pretty solid decoy range there. I can see them working.

However, if those 335 pellets are penetrating the feathers into the meat, at 20 yds you're gonna have more pellets in your meat that I'd want. So I wouldn't shoot this load.

I shoot a bunch of european collared doves (turtle dove) here in AZ, there is no limit or season restrictions, and they are just a bit smaller than some teal. I recently shot 40 on one day with a 410 and 28ga, using #9 lead and #8 lead, and have shot 150 or so this season. For comparison, #9 lead at 1300fps gives 0.75" gel penetration to 40yds, with 290 pellets in 1/2oz load vs. 32.4 yds for the 1/2oz #9 Bismuth at 1600fps load mentioned above. So you can see the lead is a bit better range performance with a bit fewer pellets, and the large dove are easier targets than ducks, but maybe similar vital kill zones considering what those pellets can penetrate to on each bird.

The #9 lead was insufficient beyond 25 yds unless I got a lucky head pellet, most birds beyond 25 yds got feather fluffed and flew off. Lead #9 is better than bismuth #9, and if I can't reliably kill large dove with it beyond 25 yds, I'm not going to believe it would do the job on ducks at that range either. For data efficacy info, on that same day with 28ga #8, I could easily shoot 10 shots/10 birds at 30-35 yds, and I get 22-24 with both guns at skeet with those loads... so I feel the data I've got with #9 vs. #8 lead at 15-35 yd shots on around 150 birds is both reliable and pertinent to bismuth on ducks.

Anyways, this "tons of small pellets at longer ranges than you'd expect" topic is getting attention in steel #6s and #7s also, with field users claiming much better results than you'd expect there, too. So it's an interesting topic, and I'd sure love to hear more on the ranges and type of shots a guy using 9 bismuth was doing, as that is surely the crux of the matter when discussing small shot. Thx!
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Well, I kinda know his Hillbilly friend.

Trying to kill a bird with #9 anything only works one way. That is with head and neck shots. Before someone starts ranting that you can't rely on head and neck shots......can you break an on edge clay target with regularity? Absolutely you can. Then you can kill a pheasant, or chicken or sharptail or ducks that way. The profile is very similar.

But it was proven to me by 2 friends that killed their limit of ducks on the Missouri river at Springfield, SD, everyday straight for 5 days. It was my job to clean any birds killed in exchange for staying at their place for a week. Very few pellets were cleaned from the breast or leg meat. BTW they were using #4 steel.

I am not proclaiming that I use #9 shot, bismuth or otherwise, but I also don't use anything larger than #6 lead or #5 bismuth. It is a matter of shot placement, not how many of how big the pellets are that you are throwing.

Head neck shots allow for a few nice things. You end up with a lot less cleaning up the meat and you don't need great big heavy payloads.

I am very sure of what the Hillbilly is doing because we have had more than one conversation about it.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:59 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

Range , out to 45yds ... Mark , what I alluded to is that's its not just Nick doing the killing there , but his crew of learners is doing 1/2 the killing . Not much experience here . Now , I'm not adding anything to the story , and I know what I've seen . Just doing the reporting here !

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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

Interesting, thanks for the replies guys. This is a topic of interest to me always, as I I'm shooting 16, 20, 28, and now 410 on ducks. So on these smaller gauges having sufficient pellet count leads to using the smaller pellets. So when I hear about success from people using unexpectedly small pellets, I'm very interested and looking for good Reliable Reports. Additionally a lot of the reason I load the small gauges is taking my kids hunting, so low recoil small payloads are also of Interest. I already am using number 9 or number 9.5 TSS in 410 and 28 gauge, so I am fine with the small size, I am just surprised that the Bismuth can retain enough energy to get kills out at normal ranges in that size. Thanks again for these reports!
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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:00 pm  Reply with quote
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We shot 3 limits of coots + 2 that a young guy shot , all shots taken in the air folded like a sock. We shot 3 limits of wood ducks , I let the 2 guys shoot first as they came into land in the decoys , Jacob the young guy did not shoot at them stating that they didn't fly like the targets and Coots , lol.

I waited until the easiest shots were done and took only outbound ducks as targets .

This load with choke will fold anything I shoot at at 27 yard trap target distance.

Just bought 40 lbs more just in case they were to quit selling it , $520.90 for 40 lbs with all the coupons applied.

Everyone that I am working with wants the small payloads now.

One guy looked down his barrel the first day stating that the light loads burned real dirty like and he didn't like a dirty barrel .

I handed him the 1 1/8 oz 3 dram he came with stating that those were cleaner burning .

Having shot 2 boxes of those on targets early on then shooting the 1/2 oz loads , he was thinking he could clean the barrel once in a while. Lol

Folks if you want to shoot 2000# rounds out of 16" Navy guns have at it , I would shoot a 2 bore with 9 oz of shot if I thought it would kill more game and I could handle the thing , I can't so I shoot what I can handle and teach others to do the same thing .

I can handle 3/4 oz and under with no pain , I eat everything that I shoot , I only eat what I shoot or raise on the farm .

Mike Campbell your April fool's shells are not too far fetched I am finding out . Lol.

Mike I still have those framed on the wall , one of my most prized possessions , I thank you for doing that for me , the finest compliment anyone has ever given me .

Who knows where the bottom line is ? we perhaps might load some 3/8 oz
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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:15 am  Reply with quote
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Just dug this up .

Analysis by Winchester Group Research indicated approximately .4 foot-pounds of energy is required to penetrate the feathers and skin of medium sized birds such as ducks .

Mike Jordan told ole Ben and I about the Nilo farms experiments concerning #9 shot and Ducks after Bill Hanus told me to ask Mike about #9 shot and Ducks .

Mike told ole Ben and I that the best load Winchester had ever developed was tested at 50 yards and it was #9's for ducks.

Mike stated that it was not marketable for no one would buy it .


I know that #12 shot will kill turkeys at 30 yards or less Everytime.

Ole Bill Hanus was not as crazy as some would have it . Thanks Bill for turning me onto #9's , only size shot I have bought or used since 2007.

Regards, Nick
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rdja
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:08 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: SW Ohio

This all sounds great, how about some relaoding data so maybe the rest of us can try it.
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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:20 pm  Reply with quote
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I would love to furnish data , but this thing called the dr 16 prevents me from doing so. Day the thing went into production was the day the attorneys said I could do no such thing .

Can guide you a bit to building your own , now dog chaser could help out .

Regards Nick
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skeettx
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:22 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Amarillo, Texas

Thank you for creating the DR-16
Mike

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goathoof
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:39 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: eastern oregon

Here is some data I had tested in 2015 from precision reloading. Average of six shells.

Fiocchi hull and primer. Length 2 3/4 inch. 15 gauge overshot card under a fold crimp.

DR 16 wad. 5/8 ounce lead shot #9.

26.0 grains green dot powder.

velocity average 1738 f/s. Range 1708 to 1772.

Average pressure 11440. range 10770 to 12700.

I also tested the same load with using 24.0 green dot.

Average velocity was 1643 f/s. Average pressure was 9645.
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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:04 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks goathoof for the data , the 24 grain load would be wonderful , you did not mention your thoughts on your load ???

I was at work on my phone and didn't clarify my self either , I am loading with components that are practically unavailable.

A buddy that I do work for ask me if I would be interested in buying 32 lbs of Winchester AA Plus powder well when it was all said and done I ended up with 64 lbs of the powder for doing his Machining and Welding .

I am loading the AA Plus powder , I doubt much of this is available so my data would be worthless .

The data Goathoof provided is a good load for this application.

Best regards Nick
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putz463
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:18 am  Reply with quote
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Comments/experience...I tried a similar 5/8oz GD load awhile ago but using lead to play with TIF and reduced cost. They worked, I get the idea of this fast stuff, aside... more than a few other fellow members commented how much like a rifle my shotgun was sounding.

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goathoof
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:22 am  Reply with quote
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I used the 26 grain green dot load to shoot trap. I am not a very good shooter, but with that velocity, I could key in closer to the targets and not think to much of the lead ahead of the target. It does work well.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:42 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

GH - ditto what Nick said , thanks for the data pt. ... Putzie , funny you should mention the rifle sound - been saying that about Nick's shots since we started prairie hunting !!

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