16ga.com ~ View topic - Powder Migration? and another problem with Fiocchi hulls

Joined: 07 Sep 2019 Posts: 2 Location: United States

Hello All!
I have reloaded quite a few Primed Fiocchi hulls with 24gr longshot, Z16 wad, copper plated 6's at 1 1/4 oz. They have shot great for me, low to mid 1200s fps and patterned well... until this last weekend's pheasant hunt. I had a lot of bloopers, wads barely plopping out of the end of the barrel and a stovepiped empty... I've noticed when loading the z16's, some slide in awfully easy. I'm wondering if I've had a substantial amount of powder migration due to walking 8+ miles a day for 2-3 days. If this is the problem, would an overshot card between the powder and the wad remedy it? I've heard of problems encountered by doing that though.

In addition to this, on the Lee Load All I can't get a FIO 616 to seat into the once fired fiocchi hulls to save my life. They are simply too tight, and I have been looking for a hand-priming tool because the Lee won't seat them, which has been an adventure in itself...

In addition to that, about half of my hulls have come uncrimped, a few to the point of losing 6 shot. When initially crimped, they seem to sit flush or barely below flush, but most wind up coming undone. I'm to the point of trying roll crimping.
I know i'm operating with cheap machinery, and am pretty new to all of this. Sorry for the information overload, but any help with any of these problems would be greatly appreciated!

Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 398 Location: Rochester, MN

I have to share with you that I am not a fan of the Fiocci 616 primer.

Several years ago, I used them with Steel powder. They were very inconsistent and exhibited a lot of bloopers.

I have found the Cheddite primers to be much more reliable.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1840 Location: Central ND

mrbarton, the Z wads by B & P are fine, as John Singer said the problem is those Fiocchi primers.

Joined: 24 Jul 2016 Posts: 548 Location: Ohio

I like Rio primers for all Euro hulls.

Joined: 28 Dec 2017 Posts: 87 Location: Northern Utah

I load a very similar load with LS and a Z wad in a Cheddite hull with a Cheddite primer and have never had a blooper just dead roosters.

Bloopers would be frustrating.

Bret

Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 52

If the crimps (=folds) are weak this will definitely result in poor/bad ballistic performance.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Fiocchi primers do not perform well in the cold. And crimp depth is important to maintain pressure, if your crimps are trying to come undone then it may be that crimp depth is not deep enough they should measure .055. Or it could be the loader I have never used a Lee Load All so not sure.

Between my son and I back when lead was less than $10 a bag used to shoot more than 20K rounds a year. When it jumped to $20+ a bag started to look at saving money like a lot of people and switched to F616 primers because they were cheaper than others.

All was fine in the summer but when the temperature dropped started to get bloopers. Kevin at Downrange was just starting out and had come out with a 12 ga. 7/8 oz. wad. I worked with him to determine where the problem with my bloopers were coming from.

This is from his pressure gun using F616 primer and too light of a crimp, with a cold shell. The first spike should have gone all the way to the top instead it drops off and a second pressure occurrence happens. But it is not full strength because energy was used on the first incomplete combustion.

He had me cut a notch in my calibers to measure crimp depth accurately. First measure overall shell length. Then slide the notch over the crimp so you get an accurate length from rim to the crimp. The difference is your crimp depth. Too much of a good thing is bad also, if it is too deep then pressure will get high fairly fast.

Hodgdon also warns of that and has another chart and explanation here:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/reloading-beginners/effect-crimp-depth-shotshells

I no longer use F616 primers and haven't for many years. And check my crimp depths. I use Cheddite hulls and load all my shotgun shells on MEC 9000's.

Member Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Posts: 2168 Location: Florida

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1840 Location: Central ND

It isn't the crimps unless they are extremely poor......Longshot is a flattened ball powder. Ball powder is generally more difficult to ignite than other double based powders.

Fiocchi primers are designed for use with single based powders in the factory loads, which are the easiest powders to ignite. Many shotshell powders made in Europe are single based.

Fiocchi primers are notorious for poor performance in the cold with double based powders.

It is the primers that are the problem.

Member Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Posts: 2168 Location: Florida

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1840 Location: Central ND

Completely missed that part for some reason......my apologies.

Fiocchi 616 primers are actually the European primer - intended to be loaded in ammunition for European use. They are about .005 oversize and do not fit well in American primer pockets. I used them in Federal paper target loads for years with no complaints - 700X powder. But you can't go back to American primers in those shells - they fall out of the primer pockets while in your vest.

Fiocchi 615 primers are sized for American primer pockets and are supposed to yield the same results as WW209s. I think they are hotter, but in a proper target load the difference is negligible. However in a hot field load - one of those designed to mimic a 12 ga load in a 16 ga gun, use of these primers as a substitute for a WW209 is asking for trouble.

If you want to shoot a 1 1/4 load in the field, get a 12 ga gun.

YMMV

Tom

Joined: 07 Sep 2019 Posts: 2 Location: United States

I really appreciate the thorough feedback! What i find odd is on the first run of the primed fiocchi primers, i did not have the blooper problem, and they are primed with the fio 616s. Which leads me to believe with the information you all presented, it is more the primer depth. I cant get them seated very deep. As for the crimp issue, i think roll crimping will be what i go with. I really like the 1 1/4 load ive been shooting other than the mishaps, so i think i will stick with the 16 gauge. Once again, thank you all for the responses. I think ill try the cheddite primers, and i did finally find a hand crimping tool that i hope will push them to the proper depth.

Joined: 03 Sep 2014 Posts: 398 Location: Rochester, MN

Was the weather warm when your Fiocci 616 loads performed well for you?

I do not think it is just primer depth. As Cold Iron pointed out, the failures of Fiocci 616 primers are also related to temperature. Low temperatures exacerbate such failures. BTW, it was fascinating to see the science behind the failures of these primers that Cold Iron posted.

The last time that I used these primers was several years ago. I was layout shooting divers and sea ducks on Lake Erie. It was very cold as ice was forming on the decoys and boats. I had just shot a scoter at close range. The shot sounded strange and the bird was a swimming cripple near the layout. The next two rounds were bloopers before I got a decent round that killed the bird.

I never used those primers in a hunting load again. I used my remaining primers for clay target loads with 700x powder.

I have no interest in using them again.