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Little Creek
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:15 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Anchorage, AK

What does an 850 bar proof mean in American language? Same question on a 3-1/4 tonne proof?
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skeettx
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:52 am  Reply with quote
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https://shootingsportsman.com/community/guns-ammunition/850-bar-what-psi/

The 850 bar (850 bar X 14.5 psi/bar = 12328 psi) is the nominal pressure of the proof load. Older guns were not designed to stand up to continuous proof loads. Nominal working pressure is usually cited as 75% of proof pressure (0.75 X 12328 psi = 9245 psi).

and

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=297079

http://www.shotguns.se/html/proof_-_marks.html

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:04 am  Reply with quote
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Mike is correct, but the Brits have made it complicated for us clueless Colonials Sad

Under the 1925-1954 Rules of Proof, the 2 3/4” 12g max. service load was 3 3/8 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot, with a mean pressure of 3 1/2 tons = 10,640 psi by Burrard’s conversion. (Primarily for heavier “Waterfowl” guns)

Major Sir Gerald Burrard, The Modern Shotgun, Volume II, “The Cartridge”, 3rd Revised Edition in discussing shotshell pressures for 12g 2 3/4” 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. stated "Standard Service" 9,296 psi; "Maximum Service" 11,984 psi.

The 1954 Rules of Proof “Highest Mean Service Pressure” equivalent transducer values as converted from LUP by Burrard’s formula 3 1/4 tons = 9,800 psi = 676 BAR. "Standard Service Pressure" for most loads however was about 8000 psi per John Brindle in The Double Gun Journal, “Black Powder & Smokeless, Damascus & Steel”; Volume 5, Issue 3, 1994, “Some Modern Fallacies Part 5”, p. 11.

The equivalent transducer values provided by the Birmingham Proof House is simply Tons x 2240 x 1.33 - NOT simultaneous readings for psi by LUP and psi by piezo transducers:
3 tons/ sq. inch = 8,938 psi
3 1/4 tons = 9,682 psi
3 1/2 tons = 10,427 psi
4 tons = 11,917 psi

Great Britain adopted the 1969 Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards March 1, 1980 but continued using Lead Crushers to measure pressure until 1989.
The CIP transducer “Maximal Statistical Individual Pressure” is 850 BAR = 12,328 PSI for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 740 BAR = 10,733 PSI, and “Mean Proof Pressure” of 930 BAR = 13,924 PSI.
900 BAR is for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 780 BAR = 11,313 PSI and Proof pressure of 1020 BAR = 14,794 PSI.
High Performance (Magnum) MSIP is 1200 BAR = 17,405 PSI for a Service Pressure of 1050 BAR = 15,229 PSI, and Mean Proof Pressure of 1320 BAR = 19,145 PSI.

SO
When a British shell box is labeled:
These cartridges are suitable for use in:
70mm case length: Guns with a chamber length of 2 3/4” or longer, nitro proofed to a service pressure of 3 1/4 tons per square inch (900 kg per square cm)
67 mm case length: Guns with a chamber length of 2 1/2” or longer, nitro proofed to a service pressure of 3 tons per square inch (850 kg per square cm)
The CIP transducer “Maximal Statistical Individual Pressure” of 850 BAR is for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 740 BAR = 10,733 PSI
900 BAR is for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 780 BAR = 11,313 PSI

Vic Venters, Shooting Sportsman, March-April 2012, “CIP Proof”
“Although the Maximum Mean Pressures for service loads for standard proof (850 BAR) guns are 740 BAR, CIP regulated cartridge manufacturers typically work to lower pressures...between 450 (6,527 psi) and 650 bars (9,427 psi) as measured by CIP piezo transducers.”

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