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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Recoil springs, Rem 11, Browing A5, Square or round?

Is there an imortant difference to wire shape?
Nope, they shoud bothe work the same
38%
 38%  [ 5 ]
Use square wire, it is what JMB designed for, the change happened after he died.
15%
 15%  [ 2 ]
Use round, it was aceptable to Remington
7%
 7%  [ 1 ]
There goes Casbro, thinking too much again.
38%
 38%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 13

casebro
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

casebro wrote:
RGuill96971 wrote:
I’m sure you know, but there is a buffer pad on the model 11 for this. I have seen one fired without it, cracked the receiver.


The buffer was actually all about the notch it has. The pad stopped the bolt while the notch allowed the firing pin to protrude rearwards. Otherwise , if you tried to cycle it with a loaded round, by pushing the barrel back, the pin could set off the primer. See "Winchester Model 11 "Widow Maker".

And I couldn't find any pic of aM11 broken receiver.


And I should have added that the other makers, Browning and Savage, milled a slot into the receiver instead of 'adding a slot'. I'm not sure how Rem did it from day 1, but the earliest production was not the Model 11, it was the Remington Automatic Shotgun. There were some changes at the name change point.

So far as pics, I was expecting to see something like the M1A heel cracks. I did find one of a vertical crack in the middle of the right side. Apparently there is a long screw there, lifter hold open latch pivot. But I think they mentioned some extenuating circumstances.

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jrothWA
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 367

the stardard 15 12ga, mag tube is identical.

The 12gaMag spring is longer and the middle coils are about three turns at a constant

pitch, then varies toward the spring ends. { I have used a replacaed Stad. spring for using the 12Mag for trap shooting]

the 16 and 20 will vary also.
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casebro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

Range report:

New spring set for light loads, it worked a couple time, then didn't eject. Too strong.

So I swapped in the old square spring with some spacers I made, 3/8" total. Preload of 4#, fully compressed to 55#. Plus the dampers set for light load. I figure you want all the spring and damping you can have and still function. That ought to be the minimum recoil? Worked very well, except it only shot 11 birds at Trap. My eyes are going.

Loads were 7/8 oz with either 20gr Green Dot or 18gr Blue Dot.

All of my spring pressure readings were done without friction parts, fore arm removed, use an ink marker to define pre-load length.

So, three spring combos:
Old[spring alone, preload of 0, max of 60, avg load 30
Old spring w/ 3/8shim, 4# and 55, avg of 25
New spring, 30#, 70#, avg of 50.

Hmm, I see things are not as specific as I had thought, what with using a bathroom scale and changing to a light action return spring in the middle of a stream. Oh well, I'm sure it is functional with minimum recoil. That was the goal, what with eyes going bad from water on the brain.

Hmm, maybe I'll try a used eBay spring? See if I can get something close to 25-30 avg, with higher reload and lower max?

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jrothWA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 367

gets new springs, [mag tube and stock for bolt return],
the mag tube get a [olishing with a used 3m scotch brite pad, then a drop of Mobil One 1-W-30 oil on the tube and new friction bronze ring and new spacer.

Alway works for me.
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casebro
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

jrothWA wrote:
gets new springs, [mag tube and stock for bolt return],
the mag tube get a [olishing with a used 3m scotch brite pad, then a drop of Mobil One 1-W-30 oil on the tube and new friction bronze ring and new spacer.

Alway works for me.


I guess you have not been following along. I did new springs, they wouldn't work with light, 7/8 oz, loads.

These guns are a tough balancing act. They need to recoil fully, without beating the receiver to death. We only have about 1/16" of leeway. Tough parameter when talking 50-60 lbs of spring pressure vs the recoil of about one ounce, +/-.

The factory parameter is two settings, flipping the recoil ring one way or the other. Different springs, w/ or w/out shims, gives us a lot more options. 5/8 oz maybe?

So, what is the lightest load anybody here has gotten to function in an A5 or clone?

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goathoof
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:47 am  Reply with quote
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Location: eastern oregon

5/8 ounce@1700+fps in a 1960's sweet 16. In my gun it is about 1500fps and higher with 5/8 oz where ejection occurs. But I load to the faster velocity.
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casebro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:51 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

Okay, next step-I ordered a std 20ga spring. I figure that if I want to shoot 20 ga loads, I ought to use a 20 ga spring.

Looks like I need to replenish my DR16 wads. Laughing

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

have 12 mag that will cycle 1oz all day long. its not a mag spring. most of my 7/8 oz reloads will cycle also, but not much luck with factory 7/8 oz loads. sweet 16 will cycle rst reloads at 7/8 oz also


Last edited by RGuill96971 on Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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double vision
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:11 am  Reply with quote
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My M11 happens to cycle my 7/8 oz loads, but I was only made aware of it because I use it when testing loads for my light doubles, and I tested a load the other day. It dawned on me thanks to this thread and my own observations that it is worn out and I've since ordered a replacement. I'll keep this old 1933 flat spring for if I ever want to shoot my powder-puff 7/8 oz loads out of the gun.

That said I've always looked at these 16 gauge 11's and old Brownings as a "1 oz. minimum" gun, and that's the lightest I've ever shot out of mine, and I plan on staying the course.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Dave Erickson wrote:
....That said I've always looked at these 16 gauge 11's and old Brownings as a "1 oz. minimum" gun, and that's the lightest I've ever shot out of mine, and I plan on staying the course.


Bingo!
Do-all.......is most a modern day sales gimmick....one tho, that may occur at some varying point in load selection dependent upon springs, loads, shooter, oil, wear, etc.

A gun can indeed be a do-all with loads....and at other times, one can be expecting too much.
As a fine point...do-all is a flawed concept too often a goal.
imo

*as a good point, I was finally able to answer the poll.
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double vision
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:49 pm  Reply with quote
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tramroad28 wrote:
expecting too much.


The words that first came to mind.
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:42 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Aug 2004
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Location: Kansas High Plains

Keep in mind that many of these guns were made for shorter than modern 2-3/4" loads. I ran into this years ago shooting my dad's old Savage 775a 16ga, built on the same platform as the Model 11 and the A5. If you have an issue it might not be just a spring issue. Says me, who knows very little...

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casebro
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

fin2feather wrote:
Keep in mind that many of these guns were made for shorter than modern 2-3/4" loads. I ran into this years ago shooting my dad's old Savage 775a 16ga, built on the same platform as the Model 11 and the A5. If you have an issue it might not be just a spring issue. Says me, who knows very little...


Yeah, I had to rework my Model 12. But this is a Remington 11, they were ALL 2 3/4.

And no, I don't have a spring issue. What I have is a learning experience that I am sharing with you folks. Which may cause other people issues.

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Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun!
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Since the M11 was introduced in 1905 I'd be surprised if they were all 2-3/4", but then I'm no expert. I was just commenting on some experience I had; sorry if it offended you Rolling Eyes .

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I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook
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casebro
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

fin2feather wrote:
....; sorry if it offended you Rolling Eyes .


See, I said in the first post that I had another spring coming. And restated it a couple more times. Since then 4 guys have told me to stop conceptualizing and get a new spring. Tiresome.

Today I shot a round of 25 sporting clays. Gun worked well on 3 stations, but I had a couple bloopers on 4&5. Fiocchi high brass, Green Dot, and DR16, 7/8. I didn't expect powder migration probs, but maybe walking that far shook the powder past the cups?

And I noticed that stock don't fit, I can't get my eye low enough. Which might explain the sore cheek from a round of trap last week- trying to force my head into the stock. At 6'3 and 300 lbs, I'm surprised, but I fit most stocks.

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Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun!
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