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John Singer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN

Hammer bill wrote:

As far as using non toxic shot, i don't. Never did and wont. Scientific studies have prove the lead does not hurt anyone or poison waterfoul. It all was a play by the wildlife clubs to dupe the people in hopes of eliminating hunting. Then the manufactures realised there was money to be made in the nontoxic shot.


Do you have any references or links to the scientific studies that provide the "proof" that you refer to?

A claim such as that is extraordinary. Do you have the evidence?

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

John Singer:
Like I stated earlier, texas parks and wildlife did a year long test, sure you can find it on the internet. They couldn't find anything that said lead was hurting waterfowl.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Probably will not see many 16 gauge scatterguns during a shoot-off at the Grand.

That Reality aside and applied to lead, studies are often only as good good as who does the study.Idea
The cherry-picking of studies or interpretations within a study happen.....it hurt the ruffed grouse and I hate to see it occur....anywhere...if, it does.

Lead affecting waterfowl under some conditions of deposition makes sense.....as a problem in the Uplands, lead makes zero sense, unless there is the odd occurrence of a large lead dump. Idea

One would think the reasoning should be, as sportsman-conservationists, to accept that...some conditions...should indeed be addressed, addressed with commonsense and worst case reality rather than the standard no-give entrenched responses too often expressed by both sides.
The later shuts down conversation and can give deeply anti folks a foot in a door.
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nj gsp
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 437
Location: WI

Lead from shot and especially fishing sinkers has been documented to have a negative effect on Loon survival, and a single split shot sinker will kill a Loon from lead poisoning in only a few weeks.
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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

the reading that i have found contribute the loon being killed by fishing sinkers. not much on lead shot. so really don't see that as proof that lead shot kills or harms the water fowl.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

RG96971,

I have to agree much of this banning of lead shot, had very little to due with lead shot poisoning. I agree there was some of it in isolated situations, however I believe it was used by the gun control type people and some of the conservationist to start eliminating lead shot which is a lot less expensive than Bismuth and Steel shot.

What bothers me most is that lead poisoning was never really proven, it is in fact another unproven theory that lead shot had any real effect on most of the over all water foul population. In reality it's more politics than conservation.

Believe me these people are not done with this lead banning, they will drive it as far as they possibly can, using politics to make it happen.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Pine Creek: I agree totally. Just like the gun control. Its not the gun. When will these people ever see that where we are lacking is in education and training. I know my Grand-fathers way of a good bump on the noggin with what ever he had at the time, sure got my attention when it came to gun safety. It worked then and would work now, but the society we have now only thinks things are true if told so by someone else. That requires no thinking on your part. I still believe that common sense is at a grave deficit in this country.
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John Singer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:27 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN

RGuill96971 wrote:
John Singer:
Like I stated earlier, texas parks and wildlife did a year long test, sure you can find it on the internet. They couldn't find anything that said lead was hurting waterfowl.


The TPWD did an extensive study on the effectiveness of steel shot for dove hunting.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/newsmedia/releases/?req=20141202a

You are absolutely correct, the study did not find anything about lead hurting waterfowl. The reason being, that had nothing to do with the study.

The negative impacts of lead shot on waterfowl has been well established. It really is not being disputed.

The concerns were originally identified nearly a century ago. Extensive evidence was established from the 1930s to the 1990s and beyond.

If you have some evidence that disputes the toxicity of spent lead shot on waterfowl populations, cite it.

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:06 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

The test results that I read were on lead shot, not steel. It has been several years ago. It was in the texas parks news. I will look and see if I can find it. I think if it was that big of an issue they would have made the switch to another shot years ago. Just like now, out of Harvard, wearing mask to prevent covid-19 is causing other issues more serious, ie kidney problems from re-breathing your air for periods of time. Who really knows what the effects of any of it are. pretty sure the air that we and the animals breath is a bigger issue then lead shot.
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Brewster11
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

Here’s an older but plainly written article on lead shot and ducks in Alaska:
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/home/library/pdfs/wildlife/research_pdfs/lead_steeling_ducks.pdf

20-30% ducks had lead pellets in their gizzards, 5-29% had high lead in their liver. No firm count on lethal poisonings. Interesting remark: ”Although large scale die-offs of several thousand lead poison­ed birds have been known to occur in the lower 48 where weather conditions restricted feeding birds to areas with abundant shot, generally, lead poisoned birds are hard to find. This makes it difficult to directly assess the severity of the problem in any given area and for hunters to notice in the field.”

My own observation based on many years hunting pre-ban and post-ban is there are more ducks now than pre-ban.

V/R
B.
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John Singer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN

RGuill96971 wrote:
Just like now, out of Harvard, wearing mask to prevent covid-19 is causing other issues more serious, ie kidney problems from re-breathing your air for periods of time. Who really knows what the effects of any of it are. pretty sure the air that we and the animals breath is a bigger issue then lead shot.


I have no idea what this has to do with lead shot.

Your statement here is not a real thing. There is no information out of Harvard showing a link between mask wearing and kidney disease.

If you have a source, please provide it. Like your statement that is was proven that lead shot does not impact waterfowl, it is most likely, bad science (BS).

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:42 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

John:
We will have to agree to disagree. Just one question. The Bible says god is real. Some say he isn’t real. Is that bad science? (BS)
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gomerdog
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 94
Location: Fremont County, Wyoming

Let's not introduce religion into this discussion.
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Emtymag
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Oct 2017
Posts: 284
Location: Central MN

I think it’s a lack of “big” name auto loader manufacturers.

Where is Benelli?

More options from browning...

Winchester?

Remington?

Zero options in synthetic.

And dare I say, no 3”.

I really don’t understand how gun manufacturers come out with god only knows how many “new and improved” rifle calibers every year but keep stuffing 12ga down our throats.

10ga is all but dead.

28ga seems to be coming back slightly.

20ga seems to be going down hill.

.410 is seeing a resurgence.

16ga remains neglected...

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

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hayseed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Feb 2017
Posts: 401

Next, they will try to stop all hunting with shotshells because steel shot is causing tetanus in waterfowl.
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