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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1738
Location: Central ND

This load came from the Gualandi data, and there are other good sources that have similar loads.

The load in the Gualandi data as:

Cheddite 2 3/4" 2 pc plastic hull
Cheddite CX2000 primer
23.9 Grains 800-X
Gualandi BRG 16/21 wad (SG16)
31 grams lead shot

I changed the load to:

Cheddite 2 3/4" 2 pc plastic hull
CCI209 primer
23.0 Grains 800-X
Gualandi BRG 16/21 wad (SG16)
1 1/8 oz. lead shot #6 West Coast Magnum shot
.060" to .065" crimp depth

I used the following shotgun, 16 gauge 1100, 28" barrel .000" choke

I chrono'd 5 loads as follows:

Average - 1,272 FPS
Hi - 1,277 FPS
Lo - 1,266 FPS
ES - 11 FPS
Sd - 4 FPS


I patterned 3 loads @ 35 yards, Using the following shotgun, 16 gauge 1100, 28" barrel .015" choke. The patterns:

#1 - 21" Core 121 + 21" to 30" Annular 71 for a total of 192 pellets 81%. Central Thickening of 1.7 to 1

#2 - 21" Core 141 + 21" to 30" Annular 54 for a total of 195 pellets 82%. Central Thickening of 2.6 to 1

#3 - 21" Core 130 + 21" to 30" Annular 68 for a total of 198 pellets 84%. Central Thickening of 1.9 to 1

The patterns averaged 82.3% with a Central Thickening of 2.06 to 1.

__

I changed the load for two reasons, #1 I wanted a full 1 1/8 oz. load. #2 The Cheddite primer wasn't all that great when I chronographed the load. So I dropped the load by 1 grain and used the CCI209 primer. Did I have it tested? No. Why? There are tested loads by Precision Reloading using very similar components, so I am comfortable with what the load, as I have two data sources that agree and the chronograph numbers are where they should be, for the primer and powder amount I am using.

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Barnyard Drake
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:28 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jan 2019
Posts: 46
Location: Indiana

Wonder if the cooler primer will make any difference in cold temps?

BD

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fn16ga
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:31 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2150
Location: Florida

Mark, thank you for sharing. Fortunately I have 800x Ched hulls and cci209 primers. I plan on loading some of those up.
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Brewster11
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1245
Location: Western WA

Mark

Thanks for the load data, 800X is maybe the best powder ever for 16 ga but Hodgdon evidently doesnt care. I have a pound or so left and will try to nurse it along but the 28 ga might end up siphoning off some of it.

Im unconvinced about the merits of high central thickening. Id like plenty of coverage in the annular ring. To me, the ideal pattern is perfectly uniform even spread across the 30 circle (at whatever specified range) and not a single pellet outside it. But since that is almost impossible given the central tendency of shot cloud, it would seem that the next best thing is a thickening ratio as close to 1.0 as possible.

To me, a high thickening ratio resembles a poor overchoked pattern like my old polychoke M12 set to X Full which had a small tight center with a useless mass of flyers everywhere else. Sadly, I never could drop anything with it, but maybe that was my fault.

Anyway, Id like to understand why a high central thickening ratio is more desirable than a low ratio.

Thanks
B.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1738
Location: Central ND

Hi Brewster,

This is what I was told by someone that tests a LOT of loads for folks on this website.

1.5 to 1 is the threshold, for central thickening, because once you get closer to 1 to 1 the pattern is about to give up. So think about what that is saying....these are 35 yard patterns, I don't want the pattern to give up at 35 yards I want another 10 yards to cover all the shots.

As far as what I know, you kill birds and break targets with the center 15" to 18" of the pattern. If and when you start taking those pellets out of the core and making it an 'even' pattern, you will not get positive one shot kills or broken targets even if you center the pattern, because there are just not enough pellets in the pattern.

Think about an even pattern this way. 1 1/8 oz. of #9, that is 658 pellets. If you evenly spread it on a 30" circle you wouldn't positively be able to put 3 pellets on a standard clay target on edge. An on edge standard clay target is approximately the area of the central nervous system of a pheasant.***

Now start looking at lead shot sizes #5, #6 and #7 and their pellet counts for typical 7/8 oz., 1 oz., 1 1/8 oz. and 1 1/4 oz. loads.......do you still want a 1 to 1 central thickening?

***(Of course this is where another theory comes in. Are you looking for body penetration on a bird or are you trying to kill it up front. I am trying to kill it up front, head, neck, backbone and maybe break a wing. I am not interested in trying to penetrate bone and breast meat.)

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ole_270
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 147
Location: SE Ks

I had a load tested a few years ago and posted here that was similar, different wad and primer.

22.2 gr 800X, Cheddite 209 primer, 1632 wad, 1 1/8 oz nickel plated #5 shot.
1300fps, 11830psi
1304, 11720
1287, 11380
1297, 11460
1301, 11970

1297 ave, 11672 Warning: Above the Saami 11500 psi limit

The 1632 wad was the one Grafs sold calling it a cheddite wad. That one is real tight in the straight wall cases and patterns very tight.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1738
Location: Central ND

ole_270,

Yeah I had the same experience with that wad. It's too bad also, because I had gotten some very nice patterns with it.

I was using 23.0 Grains of 800-X, the CCI209 primer in a Federal hull with 1 1/8 oz. of shot. The pressure was over 13,000 PSI.

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 4:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1738
Location: Central ND

Barnyard Drake,

800-X does better with CCI209's and Remington 209STS primers in general. 800-X is really good in the cold weather. I have some in the freezer right now that I will test within the next few days. I'll let you know how it goes.

I have been using this combination in another load for many years with no issues in the cold. I really don't expect an issue with this load, but that's why I am checking it.

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ole_270
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 5:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 147
Location: SE Ks

Still have about a thousand of those 1632 wads and 3 lbs of 800X. Think I'll either drop half a grain or so or use up some Longshot with them. Switching to CCI or even Win primer might drop pressure a mite.
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fn16ga
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 4:42 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2150
Location: Florida

ole_270 wrote:
I had a load tested a few years ago and posted here that was similar, different wad and primer.

22.2 gr 800X, Cheddite 209 primer, 1632 wad, 1 1/8 oz nickel plated #5 shot.
1300fps, 11830psi
1304, 11720
1287, 11380
1297, 11460
1301, 11970

1297 ave, 11672 Warning: Above the Saami 11500 psi limit

The 1632 wad was the one Grafs sold calling it a cheddite wad. That one is real tight in the straight wall cases and patterns very tight.


I'm not recommending this to anyone but I would shoot that load just like it is in a newer modern gun without a second though. I don't want that much velocity so I would reduce it down 1 grain and shoot it. I'd bet money that would also bring the ave pressure down below 11500 psi.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1738
Location: Central ND

I ran a cold soak test on the 800-X loads above. They cold soaked for a little over 48 hours at -5 degrees F.

Today when I chronographed the loads it was 65 degrees F, cloudy, RH 42%, SSE wind @ 3 MPH

5 loads over my chronograph as follows:

Average Velocity - 1,241 FPS

Hi - 1,278 FPS

Lo - 1,223 FPS

ES - 55 FPS

SD - 22 FPS

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