16ga.com ~ View topic - Comparing Modern & Classic SXS 16 gauge Grouse Guns.

Gentlemen,

Recently we added both a new Box Lock Tristar Bristol Silver 16 gauge and a 1929 L.C. Smith 16 gauge Field Grade to our Grouse gun collection. 1st let me say the Bristol Silver is a nice modern Turkish made gun for the money expended to purchase it. It has Chrome lined barrels, the gun is steel shot compatible and comes with 5 screw in chokes. The 26" barrels are blued nicely and the gun has SST. The Turkish Walnut stocks are very heavy, making the gun weigh almost 7.0lbs. I absolutely hate the rubber Butt Pad on this gun, that made the LOP longer than advertised, and Tristar does not make a nice solid Butt Plate for the gun. The gun is front heavy, balance point 2" in front of the join. Trigger pull IMO needs to be refined at over 5.0lbs both barrels and the creep is very noticeable. The gun shoots well on the Clays course, POI is true and the gun has a nice bird killing pattern from 25 - 40 yards with RST shells. This entry level gun is definitely worth the $800.00 we paid for it. I rate the gun as a nice mid level SXS double gun at an entry level price, so the gun is worth purchasing. We will see what happens with the gun longevity wise in a few years.
Comparing the Bristol Silver 16 gauge to the L.C. Smith American Classic the Bristol has a long way to go quality wise to compete with an entry level American Classic double gun. For the money expended it is worth purchasing as a back up bird gun.

Comparing the 1929 L.C. Smith 16 gauge Field Grade gun to the Bristol Silver 16 gauge is not really a fair comparison. The quality built into the L.C. Smith side lock double guns is so much better than the Turkish made gun, and in this Field Grade guns day, is was considered an entry level gun. The swing and feel of the gun puts it in the $5,000 quality gun range, if made today. No Chrome lined barrels, we shoot Bismuth thru our American Classics. This gun was Special Ordered with 26 3/4" barrels and English Walnut furniture, making the gun lighter than most 16 gauge L.C. Smith double guns. The DT trigger pull is 3.8 and 4.2 on the triggers, with zero creep. L.C. Smith Triggers were some of the highest quality triggers in the world. Gun throws incredible Grouse & Woodcock killing patterns from 25 - 48 yards using RST SpredR shells. The gun is choked IC/M. A hole lot of double gun for the money expended today. Time proven over 95 years, definitely a primary bird gun for any American Sportsman.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Modern Tristar Bristol Silver 16 gauge SXS double Gun. Nice Pheasant Gun

1929 L.C. Smith 16 gauge Field Grade double Gun. Incredible Grouse & Woodcock Gun.

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Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1312 Location: Western WA

Thank you PC Dave for your very informative and insightful review. You hit all the main points that are relevant to me, and told me all I need to know about the Bristol, likely more than might be found in a commercial hunting magazine. I can only remark that choke tubes have become a blight on modern SxS guns. O/U guns can be well suited for tubes, but SXS? Just my opinion, but I don’t see the point. The Tristar marketing crew must have dictated it.

B.

Joined: 07 Jun 2020 Posts: 231

The challenge in comparing modern BLE gun to vintage guns is littered with the difference in manufacturing technologies, and the cost of hand fitting.

Working men in 1910 were relatively speaking less expensive, therefore could deliver quality work for less than it costs in Spain or Turkey today.

The quality of steel has improved, and Computer driven parts milling (CNC) has made somethings easier, though SXS production will never escape some hand fitting.

Stock and metal finishing lacks the look of quality hand finished of vintage guns.

Liability, caused by law suits, valid and otherwise has driven manufacturers to make heavier stouter guns. Which to many is not what they seek and find in vintage side by sides. I remain convinced the real value in SXS guns these days is to be found in the BLE guns coming out of Europe and the UK these days.

Because in many respects what looks and feels like a quality gun is subjective.
It is likely to be argued en infinitum.

Joined: 07 Jun 2020 Posts: 231

The challenge in comparing modern BLE gun to vintage guns is littered with the difference in manufacturing technologies, and the cost of hand fitting.

Working men in 1910 were relatively speaking less expensive, therefore could deliver quality work for less than it costs in Spain or Turkey today.

The quality of steel has improved, and Computer driven parts milling (CNC) has made somethings easier, though SXS production will never escape some hand fitting.

Stock and metal finishing lacks the look of quality hand finished of vintage guns.

Liability, caused by law suits, valid and otherwise has driven manufacturers to make heavier stouter guns. Which to many is not what they seek and find in vintage side by sides. I remain convinced the real value in SXS guns these days is to be found in the BLE guns coming out of Europe and the UK these days.

Because in many respects what looks and feels like a quality gun is subjective.
It is likely to be argued en infinitum.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1384 Location: Denver, Colorado

Old colonel2 has it about right. Comparing those two guns is a struggle. I wrote this last week, over on the doublegun site:

My "newest" British double is from 1905, my oldest perfectly-functional side-by-side (also British) is from 1866. A well-made gun is almost timeless if (a big if) it receives proper care and feeding over the years of its use (I almost typed "lifetime" here). We all get fooled from time-to-time but... if you've been paying attention over the years of your own life, you'll learn a few things about what to look for in an older gun. Contrary to some strongly-held opinions here, American doubleguns from the 1890s were actually very-well made. It wasn't until economic forces (from around the world, essentially) forced the American manufacturers (& that's all of them, not just Smith) to modify their production processes to reduce the cost of the human component. The big difference today between a "fine" gun and all the others (see the above photo of the trouble-fee gun) is that rather-essential "human element". That's were the artistic part of any gunmaker's creation comes from. As the old saw goes..."beauty comes from art, art come from grace and grace comes only from God."

Joined: 17 Oct 2019 Posts: 456 Location: New Jersey

It is to my amazement at how 100+ years ago they were able to get metal to metal and metal to wood tolerances so perfect. It absolutely boggles my mind. There will never be a gun making era like there was then. To get an exact (or close) replica of what was built then, built today is unobtainable for most people. The CSMC Foxes are a prime example and compared to a new hand made gun from England is an absolute steal.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1384 Location: Denver, Colorado

I run across guns that I simply don't need but that are so.....nice. To build them now (for the prices they are presently commanding) would be nearly impossible (the Damascus ones would be impossible). The prices for some of them are incredibly cheap considering what you are getting....

I'm learning to not look because I usually find.

I own several modern guns, Spanish (and even Turkish), and for my very specific purposes they are just fine. They are tools to me and little more. It's the old guns and, if I must confess, especially the old American guns, that seem to affect me the most these days.

Gentlemen,

Looking back on the Classic American guns that our family has owned and traded away I now wish that the LeFever, Fox and Ithaca guns that we used for down payments on some of our L.C. Smith Graded guns had been kept and not traded away.
Having them along with our L.C. Smith guns would have been quite nice. However its not like I really ned those guns, I have many Classic American double gun to use for both Bird hunting and Clays shooting, My good friend Ken Graft owns a beautiful Fox 16 gauge A Grade with upgraded wood, similar to my Grandfathers Fox gun, every time I see it, I want his gun back in our family gun safe for sure. A sportsman can never have to man American Classic double guns to pass down thru the family. Having sold a real nice 20 gauge Boss gun to put my daughter thru her deaf college years, I would like to have that gun back also. In reality I should be happy with the incredible guns I still own, even if I am always looking to pick up another one.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

I have to admit for the money expended the Turkish made modern Tristar Bristol Silver 28 gauge double gun is a decent quality Box Lock bird gun weighing 5.4lbs, with Chrome lined barrels and screw in chokes and SST. The light conservative engraving makes the gun very nice looking. For an entry level modern gun, it is turning out to be a medium quality Grouse gun sold at an entry level price. The only draw back to the gun is the rubber recoil pad, that made the LOP longer than advertised . The 16 gauge Bristol Silver gun is no where near the advertised weight, most being over 7.5 lbs.

Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 687 Location: Ontario

Canvasback,
You maybe comparing apples and oranges, the Fox SW was an entry level gun, your Continentals probably were a much higher quality hand made gun. I do understand why you would not purchase the Fox SW, however the higher grade original Fox guns might fit you bill a little better. If you compare the original LeFever guns to your Euro guns, you will see the high quality you want to see when you purchase. I have never owned a Fox SW gun because IMO they are not the high quality guns I like to own.
If you want a high quality American double gun look at the L.C. Smith pre 1913 double guns, even the entry level 00 Grade guns are very high quality, especially the 20 gauge and 16 gauge guns.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Canvasback,
You maybe comparing apples to oranges, the Fox SW was an entry level gun, your Continentals probably were a much higher quality hand made gun. I do understand why you would not purchase the Fox SW, however the higher grade original Fox guns might fit you're bill a little better. If you compare the original LeFever guns to your Euro guns, you will see the high quality you want to see when you purchase. I have never owned a Fox SW gun because IMO they are not the high quality Fox guns I like to own.
If you want a high quality American double gun look at the L.C. Smith pre 1913 double guns, even the entry level 00 Grade guns are very high quality, especially the 20 gauge and 16 gauge guns, all built to scale.

I definitely agree with you about the quality of the Euro hand made guns, I have a J.P. Sauer 1800's hand made Side Lock 16 gauge Grouse gun, that has incredible high quality, no American Classic Box Lock double gun, matches its quality. Not even the LeFever guns. Simply incredible Side Lock engineering and Krupp barrels. 6.2lbs of Classic German Grouse Gun Engineering. Very hard to beat the engineering, unless maybe with the Westley Richards Drop Lock Engineering.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

American Classic L.C. Smith #5, 20 gauge Side Lock double gun, the stuff dreams are made of

Original Fox 20 gauge Box Lock, a high quality Fox gun, with modified Brown Rotary Bolt engineering

Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 687 Location: Ontario

Dave, I appreciate what you are saying. However most of what I’m talking about, four out of the five, are similarly entry level guns. Not Belgian hardware store guns but unembellished opening price point guns from the likes of Husqvarna, Simson, and Greifelt..

But the point I’m really trying to make is not about what their price was originally, but what it is now. Versus what one pays for the lowest priced, lowest quality Fox. $300 for the 29.5” 6 pound Greifelt 16 ga. Somewhere between $1500 and $2500 for a Fox SW 16 with 30” barrels. And you won’t find many 30” Fox 16s at just 6 pounds even. The difference becomes more exaggerated when you compare them to an A or B grade from Fox.

Canvasback,

You may have purchased guns made in an era where they were hand made, even the entry level guns in the late 1800' early 1900's were much higher quality better made guns, and yes they sell for more money today than the modern Turkish made guns. I do understand your point however, and it all depends on exactly which individual double gun you are purchasing whether the price is going to be reasonable or not. I picked up my incredible J.P. Sauer hand made 16 gauge Grouse Gun for right around $2,500, one steal of a purchase IMO. The same quality side lock L.C. Smith gun here in the USA would be a pre 13, #5 L.C. Smith and it would cost me around $18 - 20 thousand dollars. The American Classic graded double guns bring serious money, where the German made gun, cost me a lot less to purchase. I grant you it is some kind of foolish, but the market on guns is kind of crazy in that manner. I would like to have a 20 gauge or a 28 gauge just like my J.P. Sauer 16 gauge, however i can't find one any place for sale.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

J.P. Sauer hand made Side Lock 16 gauge Grouse gun, one serious bird gun for decent money. DT, with French Walnut Wood and Krupp Barrels.

Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 687 Location: Ontario

Dave I too have a Sauer sidelock from around 1895. While it's not a 16, it's built on the same small frame the 16s were. It is a joy!

Canvasback,

Yes I do like the small frame J.P. Sauer double guns, my good friend Gunny Bowman thru me a box of RST 20 gauge shells as we headed out to Grouse hunt. The gun he saw me holding was the 16 gauge J.P. Sauer, even Harold who was pretty much the gun historian for the Marine Corps was fooled by the size of our 16 gauge gun with the small 20 gauge frame. When i advised him of the gauge of the gun, he walked over to look at it, his words were, now that is a very impressive 16 gauge German made gun.
The gun will never leave our family collection.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man