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I recently contacted the domestic importer/distributer of Baschieri & Pellagri about their 20 ga. Z2M series wads. The Dept. head was kind enough to send a handful of both types, the 22mm and the 19mm model, to me for testing. They are about .615" diameter at the wad base as cast and close to the nominal .610" above that.

The 22mm size has the shallowest shot cup and it crimps perfectly without a filler with 16 grains of Green Dot and 7/8 ounce of shot in a Remington case. It is also fine for 3/4 ounce of shot with one .135 28 ga card wad. Further, it is perfect for 3/4 ounce of shot in a 20 ga. case so it should be suitable for light loads in that gauge as well for those of you who also load 20 ga fodder and want a real light load without ant fuss or filler.

The Federal 20 ga wad was the last substitute I tried for the 16 ga. Remington hull. It was OK, but it left too much space for a perfect crimp, even with 7/8 ounce of shot. The B&P Z2M 22mm wad works so much better and also has a both a good gas seal and shot cup. It should work noticably better--at least until we finally get a true 16 ga wad for 7/8 and 3/4 ounce loads.

These wads are of a better design than the Gualandi wads, but have been relatively unavailable or very expensive from the 2 sources that have had them ( but do not now).

Anyway, I'm asking if any of you folks would be interested in buying a bulk shipment if the cost is competative with other substitutes many have been using.

I realize this is just a stop gap measure until someone with some brains and the guts sees the need for a true, subload 16 ga wad suitable for use in any hull. However, until that time, this little wad might just be a really nice alternative for reloading the Remington hull.

I would prefer just basic opinions from non-commercially interested parties here. If you are a representative of one of the two facilities who have been selling these B&P wads at the extremely high prices you have been, then please abstain. We've have enough commercially motivated opinions given here. This forum has been mostly for us consumers. If my opening another source bothers you, then perhaps a little competition might motivate you to offer your wads at a more competative price.

Anyway, for those of you consumers who are interested: What say you fellow reloaders??

Member Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 57 Location: Newport.OR

I'm confused. How is it that a 20 ga. wad is used in a 16 ga. hull? How is powder kept from migrating? How can pressures be controlled consistently? Is an overpowder wad used first? I'm thinking that I'm missing something important here.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

The cost would need to be $7 per 500-or less- for me to become interested.I use the groups loading data for my 3/4 and 7/8 's loads with another locally avaliable 20 wad.I do appreciate your time to help out your fellow 16'ers Wink

Spunky, the Remington hull has a smaller inside diameter than any other available 16 ga. hull. It is or at least has been one of the toughest, most reloadable hulls too. A wad with at least .615 at the bottom of the wad base will seal any but the finest grained powders like Wnchester ball well enough to stop migration. Some of the European wads have much bigger diameters than domestic 20 ga. wads, because commonly used European cases have thin walls and bigger inside diameters. Their 20 ga. wads will work in the Remington 16 gauge hull. Once the shell is fired, the skirt obturates and seals the powder gases behind it just fine.

After Winchester stopped making the WW16AA wad, and Remington stopped selling the R16, some folks resorted to these 20 ga. European wads as a workable, though not perfect substitute for use in Remington and Winchester one piece hulls.
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HOA, what 20 ga. wad are you using and where are you still getting them for $14.00 per thousand ? What is the biggest outside diameter, the OAL, the shot cup depth, etc. That is pretty cheap. I tried some of the gualandi 20 ga wads. They seemed to be snug enough but the ones I got were a bit too short to crimp well enough with 16 grains of Green Dot and 7/8 ounce of shot without a hole in the middle big enough for #9 shot to dribble out.

If there is a better alternative, then please tell us.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Since it is a printed load in the LPG I will email you.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

If you're using Rem hulls, any reason not to use the SP-16 wad, which is about the only 16ga wad you can find commercially without ordering? It will require more filler for reduced loads, like 7/8 oz, but they work fine. I had Armbrust pressure test a couple different formulas, using Unique and the SP-16 (plus filler) in the black Rem hulls, 7/8 oz shot. Velocity in the 1165-1190 range, pressure 7800-8000.

Onefunz2r, About the only reoccuring problem is the powder migration issue with finer ball powders. This can be solved with a 1-1/4 inch square patch of stout plastic bag like a leaf bag. I use the coarser flake powders instead and migration is a non-issue.

The upside is you can load 7/8 and 3/4 ounce loads without filler or at Least with less of it for subgauge weight shot loads. for standard loads , just use the R16 and SP-16 wads
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Larry, that answers your question too. Some 20 gauge wads designed for straight and thin walled cases work in the Remington hull for 3/4 ounce and 7/8 loads without a filler wad. The gualandi 2025 wad works good according to some folks here. I've just tested the B&P Z2M 22mm wad and it works well too.

As a side benifit, these Z2M 22mm wads also allow a 20 ga. reloader to load 3/4 and 5/8 ounce loads for the 20 ga. without filler.

Until one of the wad companies out there decides its time to make a good light load wad for the 16 ga., it behooves us to find alternative solutions. Tyhe more choices we can find, the better for us.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I know some of the loads using 20ga wads in 16ga hulls have been pressure tested, thanks to the 16ga group. But I sure as heck would not fool around with 20ga wads in 16ga hulls without having a sample pressure tested.

A bit of caution is always wise when reloading. However, an undesized wad will always register a lower pressure than a tight one in any given hull, if all other componants are the same. A wad with less diameter has less resistance and starts easier. It has less "pull weight" as it is referred to.

This basic rule of thumb can be used with any flake powders of a fast to moderate burn rate. This means that any flake or stick powders with burn rates like Red Dot down to Unique will work fine.

So If I substitute a B&P Z2M-22mm wad for an R16 wad with a filler wad for a 7/8 ounce load, and use my standard 16 to 16.5 grain charge of Green Dot, my pressures and probably my velocities will be a bit lower.

Some very slow ball powders should be exactly as directed in a loading manual. Using too light a charge or a wad or projectile without enough pull weight can cause detonation in rare cases. This has happened in both shotguns and rifles. This phenomenon does not happen with single and double base flake powders.