16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 08 Mar 2022 Posts: 127

Hopefully, like I, many of you followed the GD saga when one of the members here had some loads tested that came back way over pressure. That individual contacted Aliant and after much discussion here it was reported that GD had been "updated" (reformulated) to burn better & cleaner. I saw posts about using the new vs the old GD.
None of this affected me as I never got a chance to own or try some. Didn't care to get involved w/GD , i'm happy with what i have.

My buddy decided to get into reloading shotshells as we both hunt & shoot together now, all with our 6 different 16gs. He's been having trouble finding powder but asked me if he could use "some" powder that was given to him FIFTY years ago by an old timer on his way out; FIFTY lbs of GD !

Never having used it myself I told him to call Aliant & see if they would recommend any data. I asked him to ask for "Ben" who I believe has been their ballistician for a number of years. The rep my friend got said he could answer any inquiries and then went on to state that GD was not reformulated or changed in any fashion; to use any data that existed for GD in the past (? what the ....) Yet it is my understanding that Aliant pulled ALL data for GD, even though the original problem reported had trouble with 1 oz loads.

Did i miss something back then when all this was discussed ad nauseum and guys were talking about how they were cutting back on loads &/or sending them in for testing?

In the meantime we opened some of the metal cans. NO offensive acidic odors, dark gray in color, no rust in or on the cans. I put a thimble full on a flat rock and lit it off with a long matchstick. It poured out of the can smoothly, no lumps, burned quickly, cleanly & completely. I believe this powder is good to go.

What do you make of the Aliant rep's statement ? I have all available GD data from back when. Use IT, stay only with 7/8 loads......

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 373

Nowhere, ever, have I seen Alliant say GD was changed. Only unsupported internet speculation.

The only GD issues I know of were not GD issues really... some thin walled 20ga tubes got cracks when loaded with GD data just under 12kpsi. So Alliant pulled the 7/8oz 20ga GD loads. They were and are totally fine for actual 20ga chambers, just those super thin weak 20ga tubes had some issues.

50yr old powder can be fine. I have a bunch of Unique, blue dot, green dot, and Herco all from 1990 that is perfectly fine still, thats 35yrs.

I have all the old Hercules manuals or Alliant, back to 1980 or so. There are a TON more loads in them, all still accurate and good to use.

I didn't ever see this "green dot saga" you mention, but would enjoy reading it if you have a link or good point out, thx!

I don't use GD anymore - haven't been able to get it in forever ... I wonder maybe if some of the "differences" are from LUP days to today's readings . DC might have some insight . Our guys here keep unraveling loads that are high CP , so there is something to the changes the powder mfr did .... Ole Ben Ammonetti (sp) was a great guy to talk to . He worked directly with me when I developed the AM SEL load . This is going back aways . Load was spot on , and he CALLED me to tell me the results . I believe Ben may still be with Alliant , but had heard he wasn't at the same place in the factory , so didn't do that correspondence . When I did my load , Alliant was doing ZERO 16ga testing , he did the test himself ! They even posted that load in the following data manual .... Anyway , I would approach GD with a little caution ! (old powder , I wouldn't hesitate !)...(D-I-A - their advertising back then was that the powder was IMPROVED for cleaner burning - they would never say they changed the formula !)

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 373

Well listen to this then... I got 8 lbs of Greendot last week!
I was at a place that manufactures 50cal machine gun ammo, and got BSing for a couple hours with old owner in his 80s, swapping war stories. He let on that they had 45 lb kegs of green dot. Labelled for commercial version, without the green dots in it. He pulled a new keg, label clearly said "Alliant Green Dot, commercial designator T5" etc. They use it for several large caliber loadings using all green dot data for decades. He opened new keg and filled my empty 8 lb jug to the brim!

I use GD for 20ga 3/4oz loads, it is the fluffiest and best for case filling. As you say, I am cautious with heavier loads, and wouldn't shoot them through my Kolar 20ga skeet tubes, but 3/4oz is fine.

GD is one of the most versatile powders. It is actually lower pressure in 28ga than most 20/28 loads, and makes a great 28ga 3/4oz load using this WinAa alliant recipe:
3/4 1,200 Win 209 Green Dot CB 5034-HS 12.5 11,900

I'm SUPER happy I sat around with that dude!

Here is an older Alliant manual with 6 Green dot 16ga loads. Current gyide only has one, but that is just because they stopped publishing ANY data for most of these older hulls.
https://archive.org/download/19414423-alliant-reloading-manual/19414423-alliant-reloading-manual.pdf

Joined: 08 Mar 2022 Posts: 127

Thank you for that older guide. Strange, no 7/8oz loads in 16ga ?

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 373

No 7/8oz reloads for 16ga in Alliant old manuals. 1oz to 1.25oz. Probably because 16ga has never been a target gauge, only hunting, due to no skeet 16ga. So they never published lighter loads I guess. The 7/8oz wads are pretty new in the grand scheme of things.

Dave , back in my early life(60yrs ago) , I saw maybe 1 box of 7/8 !! If only the DR16 had been invented .... None of our gang will shoot GD because they all shoot Kolar tubes . Here's one I'm not an engineer to wrap my head in : if all your loads , you name the powder are say 11K , then why is GD bad and Longshot good . The 11K is the explosion , and happens fast , but what happens in the next miilisecond after !? This has gotten LOTS of talk around the club about the Perfect Pattern loads . Too fast of a powder , yet the explosion is OK !!?? I have heard all the criping about the cracked tubes and getting them sent out to be fixed , yet the LS loads don't do that at same CP. sssoooo , back to the original subject , don't use GD in your 20/28ga tubes and just back off the loads a little - will work OK .

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 373

Doh, I hadn't heard 28ga tubes issues, since they are thicker than 29ga tubes. I have Kolar tubes, and was planning on loading 28ga 3/4oz skeet loads using the Alliant single recipe:
3/41,200Win 209Green DotCB 5034-HS12.511,900

So that is 11900psi for 1250fps, I was gonna back off half a grain to 12gn for around 1150fps, probably 11k ish? What do you think, are your buddies saying this is risky for 28ga Kolar tubes? Thanks!

Joined: 08 Mar 2022 Posts: 127

Dave, check this out....
This was a post by a member here who took the time & expense to look into this.

"Couple of years ago Alliant decided to make the Dot powders cleaner burning, once again they did it once before ~2008 and 20 ga. tubes starting to crack so they pulled 20 ga. green dot data for 7/8 GD loads.

With the most recent change Alliant Reloading on SGW said they didn't change the formulation just the manufacturing process. But on here and the 16 ga. site several have seen an increase in velocity and pressure with the new green lid Green Dot. So decided it was time to verify it, as that is my go to for the 16.

Actually there was a time, long ago, when we used Green Dot for everything except the 410. Mike Campbell was a fan of GD in the 16 for a good reason and so am I.

Got the results back today and the new Green Dot is not the Green Dot of just a couple years ago.

All powder charges trickle dropped with a RCBS Chargemaster. Shot hand weighed to one pellet in grains of the listed load. All crimps are standard .055 deep. 1oz load

Images of the test did not paste, but tests showed a pressure spike between older & newer versions of the powder. You can find the actual chart on Trapshooters Forum under " New green lid Green Dot powder test results 16 ga."

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 373

@probie thanks!

Here is that great thread with the data, for others:
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/new-green-lid-green-dot-powder-test-results-16-ga.933425/?post_id=9104750&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-9104750

Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 316 Location: Ky

I have 2lbs in black tall plastic containers with black caps code ce 0519 on the side.
Are these the new higher pressure stuff or the old reliable gd we all used for our 16s?

THANKS probie & Dave!

Joined: 08 Mar 2022 Posts: 127

"I have 2lbs in black tall plastic containers with black caps code ce 0519 on the side.
Are these the new higher pressure stuff or the old reliable gd we all used for our 16s?

The fellow who took the time & expense to look into this in '23 further stated "The Precision data sheets use the old black lid GD & the new GD (green lid) has been reformulated. It is hotter by a good amount compared to the previous version of GD which is what Precision used to generate the data in their sheets. Older GD loads were suddenly coming in over pressure & no one was sure why. The only thing changed was the newer version of GD, He also believed that the Ched primers were hotter than W209 ( at least in these GD loads) and closer to a Fed 209A in generated pressure. He also believed Fed & Ched data can't be swapped.

I was hoping that the fellow who posted all this for us would have jumped in by now. I would like to see his opinion as to the Aliant Rep's statement that told my buddy to just use any GD data, but would not give any data. Guys were reporting spikes with 1oz loads. My buddy was looking for 7/8 oz data; no data was offered. If I had any of the green lid stuff, i'd tread lightly & start low, and have it tested. I'm not an expert on powders, that's why i asked the original question. Its tough to have 50lbs of the stuff and not feel confident about using it.

AS to your question, CALL Aliant & see what THEY have to say about your black cap version vs the green cap version and see if they will recommend any data to you. Post your reply, i'd be curious.....

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 373

I also have the black cap stuff, 2x 8lb jugs from 2015.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 785 Location: Mn.

I don't get on here much anymore. For one snow has mostly melted and it is the start of prime shooting season.

The Ben at Alliant was Ben Amonette he was an Olympic pistol shooter. He has to be 70 or 71 now pretty sure he is retired. As to what would be my response to Alliant I posted it on TS.com a couple of months ago

https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/red-dot-powder.959388/page-2?post_id=9471564#post-9471564

That thread was for the new red lid Red Dot. Others have noticed the increase in pressure among all the Dot powders and measured it. Jim on here first brought it up and at the same time others were seeing increased pressure with Red Dot.

Around the same time some people had real issues with the new Blue Dot in 357 and 41 Mag some loads some to the point of destruction so Alliant sent out a notice to all resellers and posted a notice on their website

Yet Alliant continues to say there was no change to the Dot powders and data. A lot of people like to argue and say but Alliant says...

I'm past the point of arguing or debating about it.