16ga.com ~ View topic - CENTRAL PROCESSING UNIT DISRUPTIVE LOAD SIZE AND VELOCITY!

after our talk , I did go to the loading room- got the 105mm gun out and got busy . 2 loads got rid of the left over Unique , hard to fab wads , and took a while to find the Buckshot ! Felt the 9's would lose too much whumph at those long ranges , so stuck with the B-shot ! Kinda cold to sit on the deck , but keeping the kitchen window cracked , JUST IN CASE !!

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3298 Location: NCWa

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2546 Location: West MI

got 4-5"" of snow last nite - foolishly left the big barrel hanging out the window !! Worse than cleaning an old Double barrel(s) ! .... Happy Holidays to ALL of you and you too , Nick and your sweetie !!

Jeanne said thank for the Xmas card.

Glad your staying vigilant, Krueger and I sat in a blind last night attempting to call coyotes , not a thing was out except all of the orbs in the sky that by all accounts was one hell of a show.

Even Krueger is now admitting that over the last 2 months of being out at deer camp at night something is going on in the sky.

AS MOM USED TO SAY , THEIR MIGHT BE HOPE YET.

HAVE DETERMINED MY MODERATE TO LONG DISTANCE LOAD FOR DISRUPTIVE INFLUENCE TO ELECTRIC DEVICES.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE.

Will miss this holiday observance once we have stepped into the ever present now.

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2546 Location: West MI

OK Nick, since broad brush stroking us normal humans as not being able have their/our minds changed, I'll bite....

I'm considering trying your idea of low weight loads going very quick, again. History...I did try a BPI recipe (after learning of your experience) a few years ago of 5/8oz #9 & GreenDot somewhere around 1600fps. The 2 boxes I shot at the club weren't enough to truly form an opinion on BUT what did happen... I was asked if I was shooting a rifle on the skeet field and please don't do that again. The reports were very load.

Asking; what data are you using to build/develop your high speed low weight shells from? BPI? Or??

I suggest using salt and pepper for filler in these small shot, velociraptor loads. The bird will a be seasoned and ready for the grill when it goes in your bag.

All anyone has to do is roll up their sleeves put the nickel on the table put in the due diligence and prove Bill Hanus, Larry Miles, Ron Thrash and myself wrong about light loads at higher than customary velocity being extremely lethal on game and easy on old guns wood and the physiology of the shooter.

Giving out data is unfortunately not something the attorneys will permit me to do , loading up shells up for testing is a sure fired way of securing ones data .

I can tell you that 25 grains of Red Dot is too much in a 1/2 load , staying south of that Mark is favorable territory , thanks to Larry Miles sending off loads and testing all of those years ago.

Pointing closer to the target helps more than anything else I have found , the load performance is a close second.

Back to my Air Rifles developing bell curves , testing slugs and pellets, polishing triggers, hammers , springs , lapping barrels and so on .

Happy trail's to everyone.

Regards Nick

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2546 Location: West MI

Ok, appreciate the little you feel comfortable sharing. I live with rolled up sleeves being in manufacturing and here's my virtual nickle placed on this virtual table. I have both an Engineering/Scientific mind, thank you Dad and a artistic/creative/outside the box mind thank you Mom. Did a search for these (Bill Hanus, Larry Miles, Ron Thrash) guys incorporating high speed small shot in their shooting/hunting and didn't come up with really anything that will help me change my mind. Not stubborn or oppositional, open to learning/understanding in which should lead to a changed mind.

I believe Dave In Maine shines a little light on the magic (mentioning kinetic energy which is the same as Foot Pound Energy, FPE) in this high speed small shot mentality or what BPI was promoting years ago as TIF (Time In Flight) and the reduction of it.

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13308&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Using this round ball calculator looked at the referenced speeds (guessing) 24grn of RD under 1/2oz would be in the 2k FPS neighborhood and 1475fps referenced in a thread on SGW from several years ago.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/16-ga-9s-and-the-first-day.178305/

with the mentioned calculator (using 1k feet above sea level = West MI) looking for relative/intuitive pellet size & speed reference regarding terminal FPE...

Muzz FPS...size # lead shot
yards...FPS...FPE...TIF in seconds

2k #9
30 819 1.1 .079
40 688 .79 .119
50 571 .54 .167

1475 #9
25 794 1.1 .094
35 667 .74 .139
45 551 .51 .194

1100 #8
30 675 1.1 .106
40 572 .78 .154
50 478 .54 .212

1000 #7.5
30 640 1.1 .113
40 545 8.3 .164
50 459 .59 .224

900 #7
30 590 1.1 .123
40 504 .83 .178
50 426 .59 .243

800 (lowest allowable FPS in calc) #6
30 537 1.3 .137
40 463 .93 .197
50 396 .68 .267

For grins, 40mph = 1.46 inches/sec... @40mph TIF of .150sec = .22"

Thought provoking/interesting stuff. Not done learning.

Now back to running small manufacturing/job shop business in a post covid world, building boats, forming plastics, making custom cases, CNC routing, machining and welding metals, helping maintain a shooting range, maybe get some hunting and fishing in.

Also a tidbit of information , as elevation increases by 2,500 feet one gains a constriction of choke !

4/10 of a foot lbs is what is required to penetrate the duck to its vitals at 50 yards distance using #9's according to Olin farms and tests conducted way back when.

And yes that was Nilo farms , smiling.

Only the projectiles that come in contact with the target are of interest to myself, the rest are squandered resources.

Light loads at higher than customary velocity are light on the old wood , light on the flinch that one develops from unnecessary recoil and extremely effective on living targets.

Back to canning Carp , caught a couple of hundred pounds on Monday and still running the pressure cooker.

Also back to casting 354 grain slugs for my 2 , .50 cal . Air Rifles, one shoots as cast at .500 the Quackenbush has to be sized at .495 thankfully I have my casting done for all the other calibers of air rifles.

Regards Nick

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2546 Location: West MI

Again, thanks for sharing another piece of the puzzle, #9 lead .4 FPE to vitals, interesting.

Loaded up a handful of 1/2oz #9 shells yesterday well south of the 25gr of RedDot suggested (although I used on-hand Promo, IMO same as RD by weight not volume) used SG16's instead of DR16's (what is probably loaded in Nick's shells) that averaged 1800fps with the Anthon Radar.
Took my 2- M90's/Rangers, 1-28" .665"nom bore choked .632/.641" 1-26" .665" nom bore choked .641/.658" out to range yesterday. Stapled 36" square painters/construction floor cover paper (Lowes) w/masking tape center marker targets out at 38 paces. The thump on my shoulder felt similar to the other shells of 1.125oz Bismuth ~1200fps I was patterning. Albeit the M90’s are ~#6.5 and my BPS16 ~#7+
All 4 targets were basically covered with #9 holes, the 28” top barrel target was most dense so counted only that one last night 249/289hits albeit the pattern was centered a little low by ~4” so hits ratio would probably increase with more patterning. I produced 12 perforated targets yesterday so there are a lot of holes to count.
Took a 20ga Citori butt pad and randomly traced ovals (vaguely representing a Turkey, Duck or Pheasant head/vitals) over various portions of the densest area of pellet strikes. 11 ovals averaged 5 hits (1 lowest, 7 highest). So, using the same calculator plugged in #9 1900FPS should be obtainable and still be south of 25gr and 5 hits x1.1FPR@30y = 5.5FPE. x.75FPE@40y=3.75fpe & x1.18FPE@50y=2.6fpe.
For grins, 1- #5 1200fps @30y=3.6fpe @40y=2.8fpe @50y=2.2fpe
Interesting.

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Smiling about your research 😊

Do not get caught up on shooting patterns on paper unless one is developing a load to be used on a static target.

Paper gives a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional event and is not necessarily revealing in our pursuit of a load for flying targets.

I sat in the tunnel and shot patterns for a good long while , having barrels that I built or back bored shoot beautiful patterns to only chip and chunk targets , built or back bored barrels that shot less than desirable patterns so to speak that vaporized targets , go figure.

I rarely shoot paper unless I am working up a load for shooting Turkeys heads .

Shooting flying targets are the true indicator of a good to great load for game , then get out there and prove that they don't work to ones self.

The finest of equipment is virtually of no use to one that has no Athletic skills.

Some of my findings over the years of killing game for the table and building barrels for the Trap shooters.

Regards Nick

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1545 Location: Western WA

Putz,
Thank you for the data tables, good information. I’m puzzled by your 40 MPH =1.46 in/sec note, actually 40 mph is 704 in/sec (1.46 ft/sec is 1 mph, not sure if that factors into the picture).

The penetration into the vitals is irrelevant in my experience, as mentioned here before, I once recovered a pheasant which flew 400 yds with 4-6 #4 pellets completely through the chest cavity. What matters with game animals according to Nathan Foster is muscular-skeletal disabling, CNS disruption, and hydrostatic shock.The latter is unlikely at projectile speeds under 2400 fps. Some of this supports Nick’s theory, but not sure #9s allow for the ‘break a wing and a leg’ advice espoused by many.

However, the Brits in their immense grand driven shoots leaned towards no. 6. They ought to know, as they logged thousands if not millions of pheasant kills and had plenty if data to back up their guidelines. Unclear if back in the day Brit #6 was smaller than US #6 as it is today.

Thanks
B..

Theory aside:

Do any of you folks have any ideas as to the numbers of wild pheasant, Hungarian Partridge and sharp tail Grouse have been killed by my trips over a twenty+ years going to the reservation and just how many people that have come in to hunt with us over those years.

It's not guessing , it is proven 100% fact ask those hundreds of folks over the years that has experienced it first hand.

I am sharing information that works , if it's used it's to someone's else's benefits not mine .

Do as one will , my bird hunting days are over , but I would venture a guess that a large number of folks put together wouldn't come anywhere close to the numbers of birds that those little puny loads have stone cold dead in the air taken over 20+years on the Reservation.

Party hunting allowed everyone to take limits of birds home even if the ability to walk was marginal at best or athletic abilities were nill.

Back to development of bell curves on PCP air rifles , deer season approach.

Have a great day.

Regards Nick