16ga.com ~ View topic - the how and why of shotgun stock evolution further explored

geez, I hope you ain't blowin' smoke at us there Slidehammer. Laughing

Your stcock dimensions are downright modern and are just about exactly the ones found on my 12 ga. Citori Lightning and Larry Brown's present 12. Ga English double. I have to say present, because we all know Larry swaps guns faster than some us change our underwear. Rolling Eyes

Anyway, those jelly donuts look awful good right about now. Here's to a short lfe and a merry one so they say. Very Happy

Guest

I think old slide has been partaking of the green leafy herb that grows down by the railroad tracks.

Listen Buster, I might have partaken of a snort of "Old Overcoat" a time or two. Heck, I can tell good "shine" from bad "shine" too, but if you think I'm gonna start snortin perfectly good Green Dot or Unique up my nose, well then brother, you got another think comin'... Rolling Eyes

. Geez, the next thing this guy will be advocating is bastin your gizzard with sasparilla and rustin your pipes. Shocked

Geez, Slide, so now you want me to stuff burning Green Dot up my nose? I think maybe you've been down to those railroad tracks once too many times there Bub.

I'd suggest Rollin Oswald's "book" as there is an extensive explanation of the history of shotgun stocks, etc.

One "meta message" from his text is that higher combs evolved to combat recoil aversion. Fine gunmakers fitted stocks to their users to protect their "goodwill" in the market place in the last century. At lower echelons of the gun industry..dealers, etc., it became impractical to inventory a lot of different stocks for better fit. It became advantageous to the manufacturers to make one kind of low felt recoil stock and if it fit..ok..if it didn't the gun would be traded and another one purchased in the quest to find the gun that "hit".

I've not read Oswald's book. However, I am willing to bet he is referring the the British shotgun trade. Standard non-custom, utility grade mass produced American doubles tended to sport stocks with lots of drop to heel. These stocks are anything but user friendly when it comes to recoil. The reasons why these guns retained less evolved stock designs had more to do with social class preferences than anything else.

Working and lower middle class folks tend to rely on the traditional opinions and preferences of their fathers and grandfathers. Upper class folks tend to be more advanced thinking and more trendy. It has to do with levels of education, and the amount of discretionary time and money available to the different classes.

This social trend still is with us today and affects us in many ways. However, most Americans tend to see themselves as middle class regardless of income level. So we tend to be a bit blind to the truth. We've seen ample evidence from the replies of many of our contributers here. Sentiments like, "it was good enough for my dad" and " just buy a gun and learn to shoot it" are still with us today. these beliefs are so ingrained, we don't even realize to how little sense they make many times--no offence to those who say them. But, often as not, there is a better way to do things.

One point not discussed is how SxS barrel sets were traditionally built prior to WWI. Most of the older types I've seen have recessed, swamped ribs, that put the eye dead along the center line of the bores. This factor has more to do with the matter than might meet the eye.

Such an arrangement of the rib and barrels tends to make a gun shoot very flat. Without some mechanism to help these old SxS guns shoot higher, hitting a rising bird would reqiure the shooter to bury it behind the barrel as he swings through the mark to put the pattern where the bird is going. Doing so will break the shooter's eye contact with the bird and he might very well hesitate, stop his swing, or flinch when he loses sight of his mark.

A stock with a lot of drop directs the natural recoil forces of firing the gun upwards rather than straight back. With this arrangement, a shooter can look dead down a low lying, flat rib, retain eye contact with the mark, and still hit it. However, the price is a solid clip in the jaw or cheek as the gun rears up.

The only way to avoid this whack in the kisser is to keep the head up off the stock. Cheeking the stock lightly will only make the blow worse as the gun gains momentum and meets the cheek. Floating the head off the stock makes for inconsistant shooting. Keeping the cheek firmly on the stock works to alleviate the blow because both head and stock tend to rise togther. The shooters head goes with the punch so to speak, but it still hurts some. Recoil is also accumulative. Shooting one of these old dogleg stocked guns many times in one day must have been brutal for most folks. I'm also willing to bet most folks develeped a hell of a flinch within a few years if they shot a lot.

As upper class folks with the money to pay began to demand guns that were more comfortable to shoot, gunmakers began installing ribs that were angled a bit down from breech to muzzle, as well as higher in relation to the bore line. This rib arrangement allows the shooter to employ a flat recoiling, easier and more comfortable to shoot gun and still hit a fast rising bird while retaining eye contact through the shot.

The lower class folks who bought utility grade guns held to their traditional preferences longer until they too finally began to discover the advantages in comfort and effectiveness of a straighter stocked, flatter recoiling gun with a higher, angled rib.

This is how modern doubles are built today. I'm just glad the folks before me finally got it all sorted out. I love to shoot but hate getting clipped in the jaw by one of these old hard kicking old guns with a dogleg stock.

Kivaari I tend to believe your rendition as to why stocks were raised. As shotshells became more powerfull, as hunters decide they needed more powerfull shells to take down the birds that were taken down before with no problem. As I have stated before shooting with a dah of 2 3/4" with a low pressure shell is "fun". It's like nothing you have experienced untill you carry one of these old sxs's into the field. I know there I people that get them restocked and change them to fit what they think is right. As far as the answer to your post from 16gauge guy, I'm sorry but I do not like the reference to upper class and lower class. What is upper class and lower class? I quess I could consider myself lower class as I'm a retired painter. My friends could be considered upper class as one owns a manufaturing plant, another a lumber yard and construction company and another was in the food industry. None of them treat me like "lower class". We just like hunting. Quess who's dog does the work? I quess up here in northern Minnesota, this class stuff just doesn't work. Anyway I'm going to watch the finish of the golf tournament, and then I'll come back to all the railings on my post. Besides I'm going down to look at that one sweet sixteen this week.

Oldhunter, It is typically American to see yourself as just another middle class guy. Most of us have been raised to see things this way--myself included. Theoretically, we all share the same rights because supposedly, we have the same guarentees under the "Bill or Rights in our Constitution.

However, in practice, it is just not true. You worked hard as a painter and I'm assuming this was for most of your adult life until you retired. I'm betting your total income over your whole life never reached near a million dollars. Neither will mine. I doubt that during your best employed year, you could not afford a $5,000 custom double gun. Neither can I. I don't know how many children you raised, but I'm betting not one of them has a sizable trust fund set up by you let alone all of them. None of mine do either. I drive a used car. What do you drive? I eat a basic diet of meat, veggies, and a tater, but never the best cuts, or the premium brand. When I eat out, its at Pizza Hut or some other franchized place. Its never in Boston at a 4 star place. I can't afford it. Can you?

You once said you shoot your old family shotgun. You got it from your dad. I dont remember you mentioning a double gun. By the way, 2-3/4 inches of drop is not a lot. I've said this several times. you have not listened and still insist on taking issue like it was a dogleg double from 1890 with 3"of drop to heel. Did you not say you shoot a pump gun from after WWI?

Perhaps you might try listening better and filling things in better too. Suspend your indignation and anger. I am on your side. Really. However, I've shot enough older doubles with too much drop for me. I don't like them. They are not fun for me. I have also never said they are not fun for you, or that you should never shoot one. Shoot what you like. I don't care. It is not my business to.

I have been lucky enough acquire several guns or more. I started trading decades ago, studied guns, and gun values, and now enjoy the fruits of my efforts. However, none of them came for free, none are custom guns, and none are old double guns. I've learned to customize them myself if they need it.

I also learned to shoot by paying attention to the competant folks who were willing to help me and through lots trial and error, and practice. I'm betting you did too. Niether of us could afford the average $400-$600 a session for a professional instructor at some Orvis shooting school. You could say I stole much of what I know about shooting with my eyes and ears. I paid attention, even when the lesson was not meant for me if the guy giving it knew his stuff.

I learned this little trick from my life in construction. Very few folks took the time to show me how to build things. I started as a laborer and learned as I went by paying attention to the important things going on around me. I just avoided getting cought up in BS., focused, worked hard, and learned. The rare times a master tradesman showed me something, I paid attention and then practiced it to perfection. The more I tried learning, the more folks were willing to show me. It all worked together. I learned to learn quickly and well. Its paid off all my life.

I also shoot with many folks who make more money than me. I don't care. We shoot and hunt together and enjoy the comraderie. But, most of these guys came from working class backgrounds and have been upwardly mobile. They do not feel comfortable with the established upper middle class and lower wealthy class dudes who never were working class folks.

My friends' kids probably will though. They do not go to public schools and don't hang out with working class kids. Regardless of income, we tend to make friends with folks pretty much like we hung with when we were kids. That is just natural. I never hung out with upper middle class kids who attended private schools. Did you? So I don't fit with them today either.

However, many established upper class folks do pay at least $5000 for a first gun and have it tailored to them. They go to a fancy shooting school in a new $40,00 0-$50,000 car. They eat at the best restraunts or stay home at their $750,000 house and have their hired help prepare something, and clean up for them as well. Their kids go to private schools, and they will all inherit trust funds when they finish grad school.

These folks are among the established very upper middle class and are not yet even in the wealthy class. You and I do not hang out with them. So please don't kid yourself about your and get all ruffled because I'm speaking some truth. Niether of us is economically priviledged. We have our limits on what we an afford, and that includes what we can afford educationally, legally, politically, healthwise, and in every other way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as proud of what my family and I have contributed to our country as anyone. However, we are not materially rich. Never will be. You have also done your best I'll wager. Nothing to be ashamed of there. You still put your pants on one leg at a time just like the $500,000 a year bank manager, or the $5,000,000 a year industrial leader. So do I. But how many times have you had lunch with these guys? Gone shooting with them? Been invited to theri homes?

You and I just see it a bit different. Why don't you stop getting all upset at me and give it another think. By the way, I caught your other thread about the VA. I think you have enough on your plate right now. Go read my post. I think it might help you. I hope so. We are in the same boat. Lets not swamp it with this continued misunderstanding. It's getting tiresome. I think we can do better. What do you think?