16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1729 Location: Denver, Colorado

[url=https://imgur.com/Pqxjtud]

[/url]

This happened last wednesday. 136 year old wood is pretty unforgiving.

Joined: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 1072 Location: Minnesota

That’s terrible . Explain what/how it happened please.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1729 Location: Denver, Colorado

I was shooting trap with the Vintagers last Thursday at Cherry Creek State Park. The gun was working great and I was quite pleased with it, but...it kept piercing the primers on the right tube and would hang up on opening.

I guess I don't know my own strength.

From discussions on other webpages, it seems now that the top strap failed behind the safety, allowing a cascading failure down through the stock. It went from fine to "done" almost instantly.

I'm getting over the initial shock of it all and the gun is now with a competent gunsmith who thinks he can "fix" it.

I wrote this elsewhere:

"Hindsight here is pretty painful for me...if I had just quit shooting, if I had tried not using the right tube, if if if. I have always had a bad temper and my patience for cranky old things (of which I have many) is wearing a bit thin these days, but I usually know when to quit."

Now I wait.

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 463

Uhhmm... there is some avoidance happening here. I'm gonna guess he got mad and threw the gun down and it broke. My theory until he gives an explanation. That should prompt him for the details we all want...
Wink

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1729 Location: Denver, Colorado

Dave:

Not avoidance so much as having talked to-much about it already. I'm a bit talked-out on the subject and I considered not sharing it here as it being too widely off-topic, but I wanted to post it as something of a warning.

Old guns are not immune to all the years as they go by. When you think about it, they were never built to last this long, of that I am confident. Most guns get consumed by normal use over a span of years (20, 50, who knows?) and they were and are built accordingly. The better ones were used carefully (even lovingly) and many have survived relatively unscathed until now. People talk about metal fatigue but they fail to consider the effects of time on the wood that was used in them as well.

I've always used lighter loads on these older guns because I was concerned about the barrels (damascus). I'd also considered the wood but... the barrels were my primary concern. In this case, I may have it yet confirmed for me that the top tang initiated the failure, but the wood was clearly quite dry and it had some oil soaking. There is no question that I was applying excessive force to the gun to get it to open, I clearly own that and the wood on all my guns now will be treated with much more respect.

Smith's are rather infamous for cracking problems and there have been questions about their design over the years. I had hoped to avoid all those issues by using guns from before the quality change in their stocks occurred (switching from English Walnut to American walnut in ~1913). Until thursday, I'd not had any problems, not even a hint of a problem.

To be fair, it's quite likely the force I was exerting would be a problem for any type of wood. Once things let go under a big force, a "pendulum effect" kicks in and that combined "force and motion" destroys all the attachments.

It's pretty clear that's what happened here.

The next time I hang up a shell in an older SXS, I'll be addressing the problem with much more patience, I promise.

Read all about it here:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=677666#Post677666

Joined: 26 Apr 2010 Posts: 3313 Location: NCWa

Pretty clear to me what happened: It Broke.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1554 Location: Western WA

Lloyd,
Before you beat yourself up too badly, consider what Don Zutz explained in his book on double guns: The chief force when a double gun is fired is a downward moment centered around the action, i.e., the gun tries to open when fired. Hence the great attention paid to the various locking mechanisms employed in double guns. So after many thousands of rounds fired with old weakened wood pounded by a repetitive opening force at the wrist, an old gun may be a breakage waiting to happen, whether by firing or a vigorous effort to open it.

B.

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2563 Location: West MI

Take a deep breath, no one was hurt...assumed.

Apologize for adding to your frustration, but, this is the main reason I avoid side plated guns = less wood to transfer the recoil energy, a premium paid for aesthetic.

Have passed on several 10ga SxS (& O/U) beauties through the years for this very reason.

First thing I do and recommend to anyone with a nice old chunk of wood is pull the wood , and at least router out channels groves anywhere that metal and wood meets and fill it up with Accra glass.

Best to pull wood soak in Acetone pull the oil out then Accra glass , refinish wood .

Best chance of survival for old wood .

Sorry about your wood .

Regards Nick

Lloyd3,

Old guns do fail for many different reason, my best guess about this happening to this particular gun is that the firing pins were not retracing making the gun unable to open, because the firing pins were either extended thru the primers making the gun unable to open correctly, then using excessive force to try opening the gun breech. The correct way to open a gun in this situation is to remove the fore-end and remove the barrels. Using excessive force on a 100+ year old gun is never the correct way to open the gun breech, resulting in wood failure and the severe damage to the wood and metal around the breech work. I guess Lloyd3 kind of lost his temper and tried to force the gun breech open, a hard lesson learned. I do hope the gun can be fixed without to much cost.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith/Westley Richards Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1554 Location: Western WA

Actually it’s a miracle that double guns work at all. i witnessed the following with a well known American 20 ga. SXS (maker to remain unnamed):
1. Gun didn’t fire when desired - light hammer strikes after trigger pull.
2. Gun fired when not desired - second barrel sometimes doubled.
3. Gun didn’t open when desired - opening lever mechanism often binding.
4. Gun opened when not desired - gun flopped open upon firing.
5. Cartridges not ejecting when desired - jackknife required to extract fired hull.
6. Cartridges ejecting when not desired - bad ejection timing (see no. 4 above)

At least you evidently got some good serviceable use from your LC, Lloyd!

B.

Lloyd,
I cannot fathom the anguish you must feel. Glad you’re able to post about it. I’ve held off on buying an Elsie for this very reason. Not that I won’t get another sidelock (I have two) but when I get an Elsie, it will be sent to a gunsmith to be glassed like Nick says, as well as adjusted to preclude any catastrophic malfunction.

I hope your gunsmith gets it back to you in perfect order soon. They are such beautiful guns.

Joined: 21 May 2024 Posts: 110 Location: Eastern Tennessee

I appreciate the sharing. For those that know the situation it’s a reminder, for those not in the know it’s an education.

Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Posts: 463

Thx for sharing that, Lloyd! I have a 1935 m12, and have begun reading posts like yours to educate myself as that wood gets older.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1729 Location: Denver, Colorado

Appreciate the kind words folks.

Thankyou.