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What can you folks tell me about an AyA Matador. This one is a 16 ga. (what else?) with 28" barrels, mod and full. It has a selective trigger, mechanically activated strikers, and auto selective ejectors. It shoots 100% with no hiccups so far. I've had it since Saturday and shot a couple of 23 out of 25 trap rounds with 7/8 oz. #8 loads. It breaks them at to hell and gone ranges so its gotta be tighter than marked. The trap guys at the club could not believe their eyes. Neither could I.

The gun has been languishing in the former owner's gun case since before 1970. Serial# is 126XXX. It is a gift from one of my fellow club members who does not shoot anymore. The metal is nice. It has a somewhat flat blue finish (not overly shiny) on the barreled action with just a few very minor pits. The chambers and bores are perfect. The gun weighs about what my Citori 16's weigh but feels lighter for some strange reason. The wood has a few light but not serious dings and some pleasing but not stunning grain. It could be a lesser grade of Circassian or a native Spanish walnut. I can't say. It is closer grained than American black walnut. The varnish is flaking off here and there and should be redone. Perhaps a nice light reddish brown with lighter green and golden highlights and some 5 or 6 hand rubbed coats tung oil for a nice flat finish would work.

Anyway, its the first SxS I've ever handled that hits where I am looking. As you know by now, I don't know that much about doubles. Talk to me. I need info. Thanks guys.

i know nothing about that brand of shotgun.

SO:

plus side it apparently shoots very well for you, and feels somehow better than your brownings that nyou like very much

minus side the finish isn't perfect and it has plain wood

you didn't say how much they want for it

maybe that's the only decision factor...

why are you hesitating if it shoots well?

my theory is are you going to look at it or shoot it?? in my opinion you can never have too many 16 gage shotguns or 45 caliber handguns.

have fun. shoot it some more until you really like it and can't let it go....

just my 2 cents..

rayb

Well RB, it was a gift so its already in the line up. I'm just looking for info. I guess it is built on the same basic barrelled action as the present 453 AyA although not as dressed up or finely finished. Workmanship is plain but yeomanly well done. The gun shoots reliably. The quality seems fine. Its a basic hunting piece. The wood has some figure. At least its not a pine plank like some guns seem to have. It just needs a little refinishing. However, I'm gonna need some of those polywad spreader inserts. This gun shoots very tight. It would be a "bird burger special" inside 30 yards or so. I'd like to have the chokes opened to improved cyl. and modified, but I understand its a bit more ticklish to do on a SxS than an o/u. I would not say it handles better than my citoris. It just seems lighter but isn't. Its too tight for skeet as it is now choked.

Am I making a boo boo by having the chokes reamed a little? Has anyone had this done to their SxS? How did it turn out? Talk to me, thanks.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

16gaguy,

I just had the chokes on my Merkel done by Briley. They did a great job for I think $80-85 a barrel.

I'm most likely going to send my Fox out and have the one barrel opened up now.

Thanks for the info TJC, I'm sure Briley does nice work. However, in the interim, I've also received other advice conserning older, pre- 1970's or so Spanish doubles. It seems the older guns' barrels were regulated by hand to shoot to the same POI at 36 meters (40yds) with a certain weight range of shot loads and veliocities. In this gun's case, that is probably 1 to 1-1/8 oz. loads. (My light 3/4 oz. loads might be shooting inboard or the gun is just too tight for skeet). Messing with the muzzles can and will shift the POI out of whack with these older guns. they are supposedly more sensitive to choke work than the newer models. The newer guns like the 453 AyA boxlock have rounder, truer barrels which are apparently regulated via a mathematical formula and assembled in a fixture that presets POI for the pair at the time they are hard soldered or brazed together. The chokes are hammer forged right into the bore rather than being reamed to order by hand like the earlier guns, although custom choke work is an option from AyA.

Anyway, its the Polywad solution for me. I just ordered 1000 16 ga. size spreader inserts from Jay at Polywad in Macon, Ga. He claims these inserts will open my patterns 2-1/2 times. If this is so, I can have my cake and eat it too. I asked for info from him in loading these thumb tack shaped gizmos into the R16 and SP-16 wad. I'll share all that I learn and what results I get ASAP. this might help other folks in my boat who own tight shooting older doubles which might not respond so well to choke work.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Guy, you can date that gun exactly by referring to a date code on the barrel flats. Pre-70 gun, should be a capital letter and the number 1. A1 is 1955; simply go forward from there.

The Matador was a pretty solid, basic gun. I've seen some with triggers I didn't much care for--lots of creep to them. But that's about the only common weakness to those guns. Back then, the Spanish thought American doublegunners preferred single triggers. On the current AyA's, most sport DT's.

The SpredR inserts work well. Shoot some patterns; you may find that you're getting a very weak core but a good spread. If that's the case, remove some of the plastic from the edge of the disc. I used a 1-hole paper punch, cut about 3 little "half moons" from the outside of the disc. Result was even distribution and a nicely filled center. Good luck.

Thanks Larry. I'll bet you never thought you'd ever hear me say I can shoot a horizontal double. Heck, Neither did I, but the darned thing smokes trap targets like crazy. Any Pheasant that is stipid or unlucky enough to fly up and out at a shallow angle or straight away is dead meat. They do that a lot at season's end. I'll be saving this gun for then.

I am about to get a "care package" from Jay at Polywad. He has sent my some 16 ga. and some 28 ga. inserts. He told me the same thing over the phone about the smaller diameter inserts. I'll also try your trick.

What a nice fellow Jay is too. I had a very pleasant chat with him. Check out my post covering the reloading tricks he told me. I've posted it for everyone's benefit. his knowledge should prove invaluable to those of us with older, well regulated but tightly choke doubles which we don't want to risk having rechoked and screwing up the guns' POI. I'm in that boat with my old AyA.

Jay has also passed my name on to Kevin Lewis at Down Range, the parent company of Pattern Control and Versalite wads. Kevin wants me to send him some samples of all the available 16 ga. hulls and wads I have for measuring. I will do so. This might be promising.

I hinted around that a 1 oz. and a 1-1/4 oz wad would be very useful for loading 3/4 to 1-1/4 oz 16ga. loads with filler wads for the lighter loads. Who can say where this might lead. Us 16 ga. reloaders might be in good shape it things keep developing as they have. My thanks to all who made this web site available. What a great and timely idea it has proven to be.

Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Atlanta, GA

Member Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 230 Location: SW Idaho

Try this forum site and topic. Lots of info on Spanish guns.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=126

This page will give you year of manufacture
http://www.9mmlargo.com/year_codes.htm

And this one the maker
http://web.jet.es/rafa/b_punzones_larga_lisa.html

Weagle and friends, some of us older guys will throw out a thread to get discussions going about stuff many of the youngsters here never saw or even heard of. It's a good way to bring up old topics, exchange knowledge and ideas, and find out what other folks really know. It does not mean I was ignorant about these old guns. Read the thread carefully again. It does not really smack of ignorance does it.

I cut my gun repairing teeth on many of their type once I got bit by the tinkering bug. They were a good type od gun to learn on. They were both readily available and very cheap to buy. I screwed up a few at first, but who cared. They were junkers and I learned things I could not have learned on more expensive guns. The mistakes were easily fixed, or easily disposed of in the trash can.

As far as shooting them, I never was any good with SxS guns until I finally mastered wingshooting with both eyes open in the early 1990's. That last step in my developement was the key to being able to shoot any type of shotgun if it fit me well enough. Prior to that time, I shot a shotgun like I shot a rifle, one eyed and aiming more than pointing and swinging. I hit targets and birds, but not like today. A double was impossible for me to hit with, and I did not shoot them much.

However, I rebuilt and repaired quite a few before this time. So you are assuming too much again. Just like you are about the JC Higgins model AyA. I do not know for sure, but I doubt you have even seen the insides of one or a better made gun. If you had, you would probably know enough not to make foolish comparisons.

I do not have to rely on the opinion of a gunsmith about the quality of the internal parts found inside these old guns. I've seen enough to know the truth for myself. All anyone with a bit of savvy would have to do is draw a swiss file over the steel of these parts, then do the same with a better quality gun part. Much of the steel used in these old Spanish double gun parts was and is too soft to hold up long. It is very quick, easy, and cheap to shape, but not durable.

The discription I gave of the Mattie is accurate. At no time in this old thread did I I even try to compare this old Matador of mine or any of these old economy grade Spanish doubles including the JC Higgins models with FN shotguns, or rifles, Winchester 21 shotguns or any other better quality gun. So at least I'm not misleading folks with fanciful hyperbole about of any of these old Spanish imports. They were cheaply made then, and they would be today. They do not even begin to approach the better made, carefully fitted AyA offerings Jack O'Conner owned and shot. These old cheapies could be had new at about one tenth the price of a top quality AyA. The math alone should clue you and everyone else in. So just who is trying to fool who here?

The new double guns out of Turkey are better built than these old imports.
Most of the newer Spanish offerings are far better made and finished inside where it really counts. Most imports are today. They have to be. Product liability laws passed after the time these old guns were imported would probably prevent them from being brought in today. That is not a bad thing in many cases. Many were unreliable, and the worst of them could be down right dangerous. Thankfully, none of these AyA guns are that. They are all strong where it counts, but the small working parts inside can be junky. Getting a reliable one is now, and always will be a crap shoot.

You or anyone else who owns one of these old JC Higgins AyA guns are entitled to make all the fanciful comparisons between them and any other gun that you want to. It is pure hogwash, but you are entitled. I'll remain conservative about what I say about the Matador or any of the older economy grade AyA imports. Cheaply fitted is the more accurate phrase.

Some guns are gems. These old cheapies are rhinestones at best. You can polish them and refinish them over until the cows come home. It won't turn them into diamonds, rubies, emeralds, or even a zirconia regardless of opinions. Laughing

If you have a reliable one, be grateful and knock on wood it remains so. If it does break, you will probably have to spend more money than it is worth to fix it. That having been said, I'm about done here.

Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Atlanta, GA

16GG. I have made no assumptions about you or the JC Higgins Model 100.

I have first hand knowledge of the shotgun as I have owned, examined and shot one.

I also never make assumptions about folks that I don't know; Neither do I take their opinion as fact. I only asked about the discrepancy in your knowledge of Spanish guns from 2 years ago to date to allow you clarify your knowledge level. Thanks taking the time to explain the apparent lack of experience put forth in your previous post.

When and if you ever get the opportunity to actually examine a JC Higgins model 100, you may reach the conclusion that your assumptions are correct. Until that time, your assumptions regarding said gun are just that: assumptions.
Based on my first hand knowledge, I'd say your assumptions are incorrect.

Weagle
________
Plymouth Cabana

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

If you are, indeed, "smoking" those clay targets with that AYA, why would you need 1 1/4 oz, 2 7/8ths 10 gauge loads for your new 16 gauge double?

On target with an ounce, is on target with an ounce and a quarter. Nothing changes that fact. Unless, the DNR is issuing kevlar vests to all those put-and-take roosters out there.

Even if it was a gift, you should take care of it. Lighting off an ounce and a quarter load in a petite 16 gauge double is pretty much abusing it, and, yourself, for that matter. Most of the double folks here have been shooting them a lot longer than since the early 1990s, and will give you a complimentary heads up-bigger payloads don't get you much of anything in a petite little sub gauge double.

Or, come to think of it, a light weight 16 gauge pump. But, I digress.

You are aware that Europeans submit their guns for proof, right? And that different loads, homebrewed and otherwise, may or may not be within an individual gun's level of proof?

Hey, here's a tip-you can't tell a loads pressure by just looking at it. Maybe this will come as a shock, but, you are supposed to be using loads that are somewhat BELOW the guns level of proof.

You aren't supposed to just stuff anything into those chambers that will fit. Hard to believe, but, true. Ask Larry Brown if you don't believe me.

Give that concept some thought. If you remain convinced you need that 1 1/4 ounce, maybe you could buy the gun that load was designed for. A 2 7/8ths chamber 10 gauge. You will still have to pay attention to proof level, however.

It just might improve your double gun shooting, since the recoil would be a bit more manageable in the bigger gun. For what it is worth, even my modern 16s get good quality, low pressure, 1 ounce English loads-they just work so well. If I need more shot, hey, thats what a 12 is for. 1 1/8 is about max on for me on birds, even the "wild" pheasants we have out here.

Upland gamebirds, be they pheasants, grouse, huns, woodcock, etc, aren't really all that tough. In fact, just the opposite-quite delicate.

Just some thoughts.
Best,
Ted

Ted, I just love it when you go off half cocked. It is a hoot. Laughing

I never said now or at any time that I'd use such a load in an older double gun, especially an AyA Matador. That 1-1/4 ounce load is reserved for only one gun I'd use with it, the Citori. But you don't own any so you will never know how well they handle it. Plus, If I shot a dozen of these maximum effort loads for very bad days in a season, that would be a whole lot. They are meant for the worst conditions like cold blustery days when the pheasants are getting up out beyond normal distances and catching a tail wind. I'd not care to expose myself to worse conditions at my age, anything more than this would see me in front of th fire with a cup of coffee and a good gun mag or such. Wink

But keep up the patter. I always enjoy it. You always manage to crack me up. Thanks. 16GG.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Actually, you "hinted" around about the 1 1/4 ounce reloads for 16 gauge in your above post. It is something you hint around about regularly here. But, hey, half cocked is better than completely in the dark, about stuff like proof level and operating pressures, I guess. Trying to explain that even standard 1 ounce reloads or promos can have nasty pressure levels, well out of the realm of what the gun was designed for, would be a "half cocked" waste of time as well, I gather. I suppose I should mention a 'Smith like Mike Orlen can put it back on face for you, after you loosen it up with "more is better" or "mystery pressure" loads. The rash of broken Citoris seen of late seems to have cleared up as well. No worries, mate.
Best,
Ted