16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 158 Location: NW Florida

A little off the topic, but as far as customer service goes, all companies should use Leupold as a model. Hard to do with firearms I guess, but they have to be the benchmark for service.

That is why I buy and use them. Their Vari-X II and Vari-X III line are excellent scopes for the money, and you'd have to look a long time to find a company more willing to back their product up. I've seen pricier scopes. I've not seen any that were anymore clear, reliable, or more accurate. In other words, throwing more money into the mix will not get you a better one--not really. but that is how the emperor got caught naked, he listened to a slick line from a pro. You'd think he'd have felt the breeze between his knees Laughing

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Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 76 Location: western canada

I think the real problem is the changing times. There is no large demand for firearms. Restrictive gunlaws, loss of habitant for gamebirds ( who ever heard of preserve hunting in the 60s and 70s? ) and a general disapproval by society of hunting. There was nothing wrong with Ithaca firearms or their service, but they are no longer with us. Same goes for the the numerous makers of many fine American double barrels, no demand so the quality and service is cut back, then the company merges, next comes the importation of cheap offshore firearms bearing the name of the original company and finally bankruptcy.

Most of the shotguns being bought by shooters today are top end doubles, over/unders and trap guns, not the bread and butter market of low cost and mid range guns that the gun manufactur needs to survive. Remington putting their name on Russian imports is a shame and would have never happened 20 or 30 years ago, nor would the shooters have bought them.

I do not agree with everything 16gaugeguy writes, but I share the same addiction to Browning. I purchased a 16 Featherlight last year and am presently waiting for delivery of a 16 Citori that will join a half a dozen Brownings already in the gun vault. If Remington fails it will be a shame, if Browning were to fail it would be a disaster.

Regards
John

Here in the San Francisco Bay area, we have been preserve hunting since the early 60's; the club I currently hunt started in 1964. What we are losing is the wild places; my old duck hunting spot on the outskirts of town is now a Home Depot, my snipe field is a school and my grey squirrel forest is a state park. We can't even pick wild mushrooms LEGALLY since all the undeveloped woods are open space districts where all you can do is walk.We just lost the last clays range where lead was legal[can't shoot steel out of 100 year old Parkers!!]

Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 8

Reading the bad customer service tales did remind me of a friend's experience:

He bought a M700 PSS in 308 I guess about five years ago. He is an accuracy nut and shoots rimfire and regular benchrest and wins sometimes. Despite his best efforts with every load and bullet he tried and several different tries at bedding the rifle, he could only achieve a 2-1/2" group. He was easily outdoing that with several other rifles - try small cloverleafs with all rds touching. Anyway, he said he thought there was a hardspot or something in the rifle just before the muzzle. Sure nuff, I could feel it with a patch on a cleaning rod.

He sent the rifle back to Rem with a nice note detailing the loads he had tried, and some targets showing the 2-1/2" results. Rem called him and said yep, their targets showed 2-1/2" groups also, which was within Rem spec, although they would not say what spec was. He explained that when he bought a purpose built "police sniper" rifle he did not expect 2-1/2" groups. Rem's reply was oh well.

Once he had the barrel changed by a friend, the rifle shot like a house fire.

My single 700 is old and shoots well, but any new rifle I buy would most likely be a Winchester b/c I like their bolt leverage and three position safeties better.

Merry Christmas to all,
dcat

John, I would have agreed with you 100% if I only had lived in Mass. all my life. Here in the last bastion of the liberal elite, much of what you say is true. However, I was able to live in several regions of this nation. There is actually more hunting nationwide in the US now than even 10 years ago. Plus, the political pendulum has swung back the other way and guns are becoming less the hot button issue than they were. Plus we still have a constitutional right to the tools needed for individual defense unlike your less fortunate fellow citizens in Canada.

Certain genres of guns will always be argued over. But sporting arms are really not one of those. especially 16 ga. shotguns. The aging population with its more conservative views, and more common sense now see a need for home defense. They have given up on big government serving their every whim and need. The last two decades have seen the rise of shall issue carry laws, which a majority of states have enacted. It is only in the major NE and Cal. cities that the authorities still insist on an unarmed, and unprotected citizenry. But even that is changing, as violent crime has remained a growing problem in these areas in spite of the anti-gun views of the officials.

The real reason Remington, and Ithaca too, have or soon might go under, is a lack of modernization, and adaptive behavior. We 16 ga. folks tend to dote on the Ithaca 37 featherweight, because it remained a truely 16 ga proportioned gun. But there are many used ones out there and the new ones were very expensive in comparison. Plus 16 ga. people are a minority. Their market was really dead before they began this last effort. Their 12 ga. and 20 ga guns languished. Orders were slow and sparce. Very few people would pay the high ticket for a pump gun.

Remington suffers from the same 20/20 hindsight blindness. They know what used to work and have stubbornly clung to old ways and policies. They are about as responsive as a fully loaded battleship. Their own size and inertia has carried them well past the mark they needed start their turn on and now its probably too late. They also do not have Dupont's financial might behind them anymore to buttress them from their errors. So a ship wreck is probably inevitable.

Look how much effort it took to get them to sell 285,000 R16 wads to us. And we did most of the work along with Recob's. They went into it kicking the whole way and they still screwed up the order. That is a lack of care on a small thing. I don't even want to think about the overall picture.

They probably fired their field reps for telling them what they really needed to hear. Speaking truth to power is always risky. those guys are probably the lucky ones. They'll get snapped up by the rest of the industry. The rest of the work force will probably be blindsided with vague promises and a sudden dismissal at the final hour. I'd be seriously looking elsewhere right now if I was in their shoes. Anyway, Merry Christmas to you John. 16GG.

Member Joined: 09 Aug 2004 Posts: 401 Location: Tennessee

Hey 16GG - Quote - Look how much effort it took to get them to sell 285,000 R16 wads to us. And we did most of the work along with Recob's. They went into it kicking the whole way and they still screwed up the order.

It's been two months now, and no word. What is up with the wads that Remington owes us? If we had delayed payment by two months, Big Green would have already wrecked our credit. Status please??
Bill

Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 76 Location: western canada

Parker Trojan
You guys in California have always been thirty years ahead of us up here in the north.

Sixteengaugeguy
I still do not agree with everything you write, however my dog is usually more correct than I am.

Wishing the both of you and everyone else on this forum a Merry Christmas and may the New Year be at least as good as this one.

Regards
John

Hi Guys
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL
It's Christmas here already.We get first go at it as we are 13 hours ahead of your east coast and 17 on the west and it is nearly beer/oclock here.
This Remington business even effects me all the way over here.Though I don't own one, other than my 45/90 rolling block creedmoor rifle.

A friend of mine works for an engineering company in Phelps NY where he is a foreman.They manufacture Remington screw in chokes.He showed me some the last time I was over there.They were a very high quality. I hope they don't suffer too much if Remington goes belly up.The particular company is a jobbing shop and dosen't rely soley on one client but a small town business needs all the the work they can get
On the hand
Another good friend is a barrel maker who has just invested several million into the shotgun barrel manufacturing market .He rang last night to wish us seasons greetings in between moving machines and setting the new year works program.
It's a funny old world where two friends of mine can be effected in different ways by Remingtons troubles.
It's nearly lunch time so I'll go and fire up the BBQ.the prawns are ready and the VB is icy cold (Victoria Bitter. I dont drink Fosters it's a Lager .I drink Bitter ,comes in a green can)

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL

sbs470

Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 1 Location: lake havasu city, az

could remington be i financial trouble. dont know. but here is an event I personnally was involved in. my job shall remain undeclared, but, my employers office has in storage a remington bdl in 30-06. Certain non law enforcement personnel must qualify with the rifle in a very basic way, mostly basic safety. while at the range during a qualification course, standing behind the person holding the rifle, he in a sitting position touched the safety prior to complying with the order to fire. the gun disharged when the safety was pushed forward. this was the second time
on the second rifle i had seen this happen. the rifle was returned to the dealer who contacted remington. remington said they were not responsible in any way for the failure of the safety, or for repairing the safety, and refused to accept the rifle for inspection or repair.

make what you want of this but it is true. there is also a web site dedicated to discussions of the failure of remington rifle safety's, and to
the solicitation of accidents resulting from safety failure. remington will not discuss the issue but they have to be in deep do do.

however, if you want to talk about real quality failures of a recent nature please check the ruger 77 or the marlin lever. Here is my experience.
ruger. purchased a high end model 77 express in 375. safety failed to lock the bolt and firing pin sometimes failed to go all the way forward and make a full heavy strike on the primer. left the primer faintly indented but failed to detonate primer. model 77 35 whelen same problem. high end ruger 77 express in 30-06 with push feed bolt installed new in the box instead of controlled feed bolt. replaced by ruger after 2 months.
two model 77's in 350 remington mag caliber owned by friends would not feed the cartridge. one was a blue steel wood stock the other a stainless steel black synthetic stock.

marlin: i prchased new a 357 lever action would not feed any 38 or 357 reliably, not any bullet factory or hand load shape. none at all. sold it
at a gun show. two friends big in to cowboy action bought the alleged hand fitted case hardened receiver versions for almost one thousand dollars each. neither worked any better than mine. returned to factory which kept them several months and returned them just barely working with round nose full metal case only.

To Roadkill and the rest of the original R16 order members:

I had a nice chat with Jeff Recob on 12/23/05. Jeff informed me that Remingtion has been preiodically shipping Recobs the missing R16 wads in varying lots. Remington has been somewhat behind schedule with these shipments, but most of the wads have arrived.

When there are enough wads amassed to complete the original count, Recob's will divide them up evenly per 5K lot and ship them free of charge to each one of the folks who originally ordered.

There will be enough shipped to each of us to more than make up for the original shortages. You each will receive one or more bags of wads according to how many 5K lots you each ordered. This will happen as soon as Recob's gets the entire amount of R16 wads needed and can bag them up and ship them.

I trust this will satisfy all of us in the original group. Please let Recob's get the job done. They have been really wonderful throughout the entire process and are dealing not only with our varied group, but with Remington, a large company who we know to be in serious trouble. It cannot be an easy position to be in. Jeff told me to tell you folks that between the two entities, us and Remington, we have been by far, the easiest to deal with and he thanks you all for your patience and your understanding. He also wished everyone "Happy Holidays."

I 've gotten this info to you as fast as I could. A little more patience and we will end up ahead of the curve on this matter. We have Recob's to thank for that. I also thank you folks for your exemplory behavior. Its been a pleasure representing our collective interests, because you've made it easy for me. Thank you, 16GG.

If what you say about Remington is true, it doesn't surprise me. I have owned several 1100's over the years and there is the story in itself. Nothing has changed. The last one I bought was exactly like the one I bought 40 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I like them but they are just not keeping up. About 2 years ago I sold my Lt20 and bought an 11-87 in 20 ga. I quickly found out that that 11-87 wouldn't cycle light 7/8 oz loads reliably. Thats what I'm saying, You need to buy 2 Remingtons just to be able to shoot all loads from 7/8 oz to 1 1/4 oz.
I recently bought a 20 ga Benelli and that thing cycles everything. Why can't Remington do that.
Along the same note, look what it did with it's 16 ga., put it on a 12 ga frame. On top of that, Remington didn't even expand it's line of ammunition to support the gun. I couldn't believe it.
I guess Iwon't miss them if they go. Maybe that will be a good thing. It might allow some other inovative company to fill the gap.

Sco, I'll miss the hell out of them. It will be a damned big gap to fill. However, if they haven't smartened up by now, Its probably a foregone conclusion.

I don't know what upsets me more, the fact that they have come to this, or their rotten attitude towards the folks who helped make them what they once were, one of America's premier gun and ammo companies. It was us, the shooting public who put them on top. They turned their backs on us long ago in quest of more profits.

Its no mystery that if you screw over your supporters or clients for selfish reasons, you will fail down the road. I'm wondering why they still don't get it. In business as in all other human endeavors, there must be give and take, an equal distribution of benifits. That is how capitalism is supposed to work. In fact it is the only way the system can sustain itself. Read "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. Its all there if you read it thoroughly, and not just the part on profits, money, and power. Remington wanted the lion's share for themselves without regarding their friends' wellbeing. Now they got bubcus. They forgot that they are not lions who kill their cubs and smaller pride members routinely but human beings, a species whose success has been based on mutual support of the tribe by protecting the weakest. Its a damned shame, and they deserve it. But I'm still going to miss them if it is too late.