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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:38 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

16 you are lucky to have a local gunsmith that can make a part. They are a dying breed. I'm happy if I can find a gunsmith that can order a part, fit it to the gun without screwing anything up.
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16ga.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:38 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 02 Jun 2004
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23dec05

Mattkc-- I think that's what this forum is for... if you need help, 16gg or someone else will help you find it.

Merry Christmas to all you guys and thanks for making this 'hobby' so much fun.

16ga.
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saw557
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 59

O.K. I see I've opened a real can of wroms here. I grew up shooting 1930's and 40's model 12 sixteens so I appriecate the beauty of the 16ga. I've got a Wirehaired griffon whos so ugly he's cute....not exactly a mainstream dog so I guess I am hung up on the idea of having a gun that isn't exactly mainstream. I open to suggestions as far as other 16 ga o/u options. I just picked the Citori and the F.A.I.R. because they are in the $$$ballpark I am willing to spend.
Scott
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:39 pm  Reply with quote
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Guy, a FAIR and a Citori are relatively similarly priced guns. You've made the point about service AFTER the sale. Well, see my other post on FAIR chokes . . . and then, I'd suggest you actually MEASURE (with a bore and choke gauge) the chokes that come standard with ALL Citori 16's--and remember, you only get 3 of them, compared to the 5 you get with a FAIR. And what they tell you is mod, is in fact light mod; and the full is so full my bore gauge will not fit inside it, which means it's maybe OK for turkeys or something. Yes, you can buy other chokes . . . but from actually measuring them, they're screwy too.

As I mentioned on the "FAIR choke" thread, I'm surprised the gun came with the wrong chokes, and I'd be VERY surprised (having done A LOT of business with Cabela's) that they would not correct that mistake by taking the wrong chokes and giving him the right ones. I once bought a gun from them that came with a case. I didn't know that until I inquired of the original importer of the gun. Simply a slip-up on their part; they apologized and gave me the case.

New England Arms, the original importer of the FAIR, was around for about 30 years before closing its doors. Yes, they're gone now, and yes, one should take that into account when one buys a FAIR. On the other hand, if I liked the FAIR better than the Citori, that would not stop me from buying it. They've been around long enough now, and have been discussed enough on BB's like this, to give me confidence that it isn't going to break tomorrow, not likely even a few years from now.

But remember, we're talking 16's here, and 16's are inherently exotic. Most people that really get into 16's will eventually own a gun that was imported by a company that's now out of business, or made by a company that's now out of business. That's simply a fact of life in the 16ga world, and if you want to avoid it, stick with 12's and 20's, of which there are all kinds around by people that have been in business for a very long time. But even American companies with over a century in the business do cease operations, Ithaca being perhaps the most recent example where shotguns are concerned. Elsewhere there's a post about Remington being in trouble. Who knows who's next? Sure, inquire about the reliability of the gun you're going to buy. That's one of the real values of this BB. But no matter what you buy, they all break. And they all come with their "issues"--the weird chokes being an issue with the Citori 16's.
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Dave Erickson
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:37 pm  Reply with quote
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Larry, when I had my 16 gauge Citori Lightning I ordered a "skeet" choke to open the patterns a little bacause the IC tube was so tight. The skeet tube was actually tighter than the IC tube. Lenard L had the same expereiance with his 16 gauge Citori. They are nice guns, but I never really fell in love with mine.

If I bought another 16 gauge OU I'd go with the FAIR.
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kgb
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:04 pm  Reply with quote
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In my case I likewise found the factory Browning chokes that came with my Citori at 003" for IC, .010" for Mod and .046" for Full. That Full choke had to be measured with a caliper since the pull-through gauge wouldn't fit.

However, the three Briley-manufactured, Browning-stamped chokes I bought later (silver/stainless material) measure along with the specs Briley shows on their website for their own products. Cyl is .002, Skeet is .007, Mod is .022, each .002" over design which I call close enough--the barrels on the Citori are .001" different from one another, also sounds close enough.

_________________
Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern
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icejets
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:40 pm  Reply with quote
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16gg,

I'm the one who purchased the FAIR 16 a LX400 Gold from Cabela's with the wrong chokes in the box. I don't know about new buyer since this is my 11th 16gauge and my 16th shotgun overall. Yes, I have Citoris and Remingtons, some Smiths, a couple of Foxes, a Parker and even bought a Huglu. I bought the FAIR on a busy Friday and just didn't check the chokes myself, clearly my fault, buyer beware. I could raise hell with Cabela's till they made it right but I'm not sure it would be worth it. If you will pattern test your choke tubes you will find that that the extended tubes that you get from Briley are are superior to the flush tubes from any manufacturer so I would have replaced them anyway. The point is I wanted the FAIR. I can honestly say I have met few 16 gauge shot guns that I didn't like. Yes, at some point I will buy a 16 gauge Citori (the only Citori gauge I don't own) and if they pull off the 525 in 16 I'll prob;y get one of those too.

Remember varity is the spice of life.

Thanks,

Icejets
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:46 pm  Reply with quote
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I addressed the issue of the 16 Citori's overly full, full choke tube last summer. My two gr. 1 shooters were purchased as 2nd hand guns, so I made do with the chokes that came with them . I had Mike Orlen take out one tube to .024 points and another to .032 several years back. the IC chokes both were .006 and the mods were .015+ and .016. or about right for a .669 bore. The fulls were .046 each---a bit snug you bet.

I also purchased a pair of cylinder tubes a while back for $10 each. They are both .670 and work fine for skeet, even with my 3/4 oz #9 loads. By using the variations within the usual Browning run of standard 16 ga tubes they've made since 1987 for the Citori and the A-5 to my advantage, I've got a .003, .006, .009, .012, .016, and .020 along with my others. These tube are not rare and can be found used in any number of places. I 've even recently purchased a pair of Briley extended tubes for $7 each out of the used tube box at Kittery Trading Post on my last visit. I always pack a vernier when I go there or to any of the bigger gun shows. I'm always looking for choke tubes for my various gauges and those of friends.

Last summer, I sent a couple of old/new tubes back to Browning for their take on it. They told me they have changed suppliers and now the chokes are not only stainless, but more in line with their 17MM (.668-.670) bore. They were also kind enough to replace the two full choked tubes with new ones which are at .032 points constriction, which is 10% smaller than .670, a near perfect full for the bore size. I thought that was darned nice of them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly, I've never found a perfect gun or gun company. Some of the stuff Browning has pulled in the past and even some of their present policies leave much to be desired from a consumer's point of view. I've ragged on the Gran Lightning for a good reason. I know from experience the wood they put on these guns is not the most sound they have. It really is culled from the grade VI lot. A lot of Grans have let go at the wrist in the past, because the figure went too far up the wrist and snapped at this weak spot. When it happens, getting the stock replaced is a nightmare.

I bought a 20 ga Gran Lightning in 1995. It was one of the first higher grade Citori models I'd managed to buy and with fairly hard earned money to boot. I saw the gun for sale at Roach's in Porter Square, Cambridge. for $1250. It had the most beautiful radiused feather grained walnut I'd ever seen and was even on both sides. The figured wood went clear to the wrist, so I thought in my inexperience, wonderful--more figure.

A few monthes later, while shooting skeet, the stock failed at the wrist and the left cheek peeled away exposing the action workings. I was horrified, but figured it would be covered under warrenty. I took the gun back to Roache's who sent it to Browning Repair. While I was at Roache's, Charlie, the head of the gun department told me that this was the third GL he's had fail in a short time. He also tutored me on the danger of stocks with figure in the wrist. He showed me his collection of fine, high grade Brownings and why he'd picked them.

A few monthes later, the gun came back. I opened the box to find it had been stocked with a grade one piece of wood, which was not only plain, but did not even match the forend in color. I was livid and called Arnold, MO to set things right. The supervisor of the facility informed me that GL guns were basically grade one guns with better wood and nothing more. He also pointed out that the serial number suffix on the action designated the gun as a grade one, which was true. I was told I'd have to make do, because the only small frame grade VI stocks they had were reserved for grade VI guns. This was their policy. The operative word here is WAS.

I went on the warpath. I called Browning Utah continually until I got past all the lower case flunkies and finally gained the ear of Dick Boucher, a long time Browning exec and by then, Vice President of Marketing. I explained that my campaign of phone assault would not cease until my gun was properly stocked with wood at least as good as the original. Dick said he'd see my dilema was set right.

A few days later, Roache's called and told me that I was to come in and pick any GL or Grade III gun I wanted out of their stock and Browning would pick up the tab. I was to bring the GL in for return. Charlie advised me to go with the Grade III and had picked out a really excellent one in 20ga. with really gorgeous varigated grain, multi colored wood. It was not quite as radiant as that GL, but was one of the nicest GR III guns I'd ever seen. I still have it.

During the interim between then and now, I've become friends with Charlie and also several of the service folk at Arnold, MO. Browning has had a change of administration and has improved their policies on customer service. Dick Boucher retired several years ago. I 've lost a valuable friend and ally there. He will be missed.

The practice of using culled wood for GL guns continues and so does the difficulty of getting one restocked if the wood fails. It happens too often to please me. I won't risk the chance. That is the only reason I have ragged on this grade of Citori. I still disagree with the practice and always will. I will advise anyone who wants better wood on their Citori to go with a Grade III or Grade VI gun. If the stock fails, Arnold, MO has the ok to use high grade wood for refit. GL guns are restocked with the best Grade I wood available, but it is still Grade I wood.

Like I've said, you pays your money and you takes what you gits. Then if things go wrong, you either eat the loss or wage a campaign of phone war like I did. A word to the wise is sufficient---sometimes.

My apologies to those I've offended with my stubborn position on GL guns. However, that position will not likely change any time soon. I don't like being screwed, and I don't like seeing others being screwed either--whether they know they are being screwed or not. But that is just me. I'm funny that way. 16GG.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:54 am  Reply with quote
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What gives me a good comfort level in recommending the FAIRs is that they're being sold by Cabela's, and I've done a bunch of gun business with Cabela's. I've returned guns to them that I didn't like for a full refund, had a stock break on a USED gun which they restocked for me at no charge (and very promptly), traded back guns I've bought from them, all without having to scream at anyone. With Cabela's handling the FAIRs, I think buyers are in good shape. I expect to see more gunmakers go out of business, but I think Cabela's will be around for a long time.

16gg's post is instructive on how to get satisfaction when you buy a gun. I've had people tell me they've run into real idiots selling guns at Cabela's, and I have no doubt about that. Given the size of their operation and the hours they're open, they aren't always going to have top notch guys working when you happen to stroll into the store. With big outfits like that, the best way to proceed is to find someone who DOES know what he's doing and will treat you fairly (usually, that will be some of the guys in their Gun Libraries), and then try to deal only with those individuals. That's worked extremely well for me. And between all their stores, they have a very extensive inventory. They're usually willing to ship a gun from a more distant store to the one closest to you, so you can get your hands on it and look it over before you buy. Their prices are not the lowest (nor the highest), but most of the people I know feel that they treat you fairly on trades (which a lot of dealers don't), and their service after the sale is top of the line.
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