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| < 16ga. General Discussion ~ Some really basic bird dog questions |
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 Posted:
Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:59 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois
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Eddie:
Make sure you figure out how to introduce the dog to the gun so you don't end up with a gun shy dog. Some say they are born this way, but my experience is you can create a problem where there may not have been one. For many dogs it is never an issue.
Sounds like time is a commodity you don't have a lot of. That works against you, but 10 minutes a day for a month goes a long way. Like anything the first time training a bird dog does not work as well as the second. Most dog training books assume you have 20 acres and a boat load of goodies to train them with. If you can find a copy of "How to train a bird dog" by R.W. Strickland all you need is a 30' check cord. The paperback is maybe 90 pages long. Try a book store in Manistee, MI. May be out of print.
Visiting a pro for a bit works well to train both of you. There are a few good ones and a lot of really bad ones. If you go this route choose wisely.
Enjoy the pup
Chicago Mike |
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:18 am
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Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 65
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| Okay, so many great responses, thank you! I'm going to respond to a few of them below. Thanks again... |
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:20 am
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Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 65
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| steve007 wrote: |
Eddie,I am reluctant to disagree with others on this fine board,but my backgrond is so like your own, I feel I have some basis for doing so.
I put 12 obedience titles (plus a ScHI) on various dogs before I ever saw a bird dog. These days, in terms of house stuff and general manners, I train dogs automatically just by living with them. Others think they are "naturally" good dogs. Sometimes I do, too. But we are wrong.
That's the way it is with sensible people who have had long exposure to bird dogs. They train dogs automatically and unknowingly, just based on reflexes and experience,and it can seem easy to them. It isn't, for you. You have neither,and living with an older dog, you forget how nuts a young dog can be.
Here's a good suggestion.Read books on bird dog training, but early in the dog's development, take him to a pro you like personally within driving distance. YOU train the dog under his direction.He will give homework in terms of daily work with the dog.
I got a high powered well-socialized but untrained well-bred adult dog. I trained three days a week for four months (plus homework) with a fine pro for $25 a lesson plus birds. Big commitment,as I had to drive some to get there, but it was only four months. It was the best possible use of my money and time. At the end, both my dog and I were trained. The pro never touched or spoke to my dog. I did, under his direction.
No point in talking about our later accomplishments, which are considerable, but it is the best way for a novice to train a dog. You owe it to him to give your dog the best. You don't need to go to the extreme I did, but the methodology is the right one. imo
By the way, teaching a dog sit is no problem for an obedience trainer. Just teach"whoa" as a "stand for examination" command.He won't mix them up, anymore than Siera confused "stand" with "sit". Two different commands. I don't use the sit command in the field, through.Usually.
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I like the idea of going to a trainer where I can do the training, and get homework assignments to work on in our yard. I'm not afraid to work at it. I will start researching trainers within a couple hours of me.
Great comments, thank you for your feedback. |
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:27 am
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Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 65
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| Hootch wrote: |
Talk about opening up a can of worms. First, I disagree with your choice of breeds for what you are going to do with the dog. But choosing a breed is a very touchy subject. I think someone has on this forum a saying about "...say what you want about my wife, but be real careful what you say about my hunting dog..." In my opinion there are no "bad" breeds. A person just needs to choose a breed that fits his needs. Example, don't get an english pointer if you want your dog to never hunt further than 40 yds from you. OR don't buy a GSP if you want the dog to be pulling Canada geese out of a river wvery weekend.
I don't care for GSPs either. Not that they are bad dogs, in fact I have hunted behind some pretty good ones, but they way I like to hunt, and they way I want my dog to behave is not a GSP. I like my dogs to hunt close, and I mean close. I also want it to point. SO this rules out the flushing breeds, I have a 13 yr old Small Munsterlander, my new pup is a St. Usuge Spaniel who I believe will hunt even closer than my SMP! Both sleep in our bed at night. A requirement for me, not so for others. Many do not believe in keeping dog in the house. My point is, if you don't want to keep dog in the house don't buy a SMP or a St. Usuge Spaniel. They need to be with you.
I think your biggest training will be simply obedience. If you can get dog to sit or whoa, whichever you choose, in the field with "bird in her nose" then you will have what you want.
In my opinion, reading what you are going to do and want from the dog, a Boykin spaniel, or a lab would be your ticket. BUt that is only MY opinion, and is worth two cents or less. The reason that there is so many breeds, is well, everybody wants something different.
Keep the dog in you house, be with it whenever possible, never raise your hand or your voice to it, and teach him to whoa (or sit) on command and you will not be disappointed at all.
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Hootch, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. The breed, however, is really what I want. In fact, my new dog was just born yesterday!!
I am a beginner hunter just like my dog. So I'd be just as happy adjusting how and what I hunt to spend quality time with her rather than get a breed I didn't like as much for what I think might be my style of hunting. This is a (hopefully) fifteen year commitment to a new Best Friend. We can work through our differences in obedience and in hunting!
But great advice and I thank you. |
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:32 am
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Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 65
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| Chicago wrote: |
Eddie:
Make sure you figure out how to introduce the dog to the gun so you don't end up with a gun shy dog. Some say they are born this way, but my experience is you can create a problem where there may not have been one. For many dogs it is never an issue.
Sounds like time is a commodity you don't have a lot of. That works against you, but 10 minutes a day for a month goes a long way. Like anything the first time training a bird dog does not work as well as the second. Most dog training books assume you have 20 acres and a boat load of goodies to train them with. If you can find a copy of "How to train a bird dog" by R.W. Strickland all you need is a 30' check cord. The paperback is maybe 90 pages long. Try a book store in Manistee, MI. May be out of print.
Visiting a pro for a bit works well to train both of you. There are a few good ones and a lot of really bad ones. If you go this route choose wisely.
Enjoy the pup
Chicago Mike
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Thanks Chicago Mike. As far as introducing the dog to the gun, I have a dear friend who is quite accomplished in training dogs for upland game, and I plan to pick his brain quite a bit about such things, and seek his help as well as that of a trainer (where I can do the training myself rather than drop her off for a month). I want to do everything as 'right' as I can do them.
As far as time goes, I didn't mean to say that I don't have time to train a dog. I do. What I do have is just a lot of stuff I like to do. But fly fishing, kayaking, hiking, etc., it's all stuff I plan on trying with my dog as well. If training a dog for hunting is my next favorite hobby, great! But as someone said earlier, living with the dog and doing activities with the dog, all of that becomes training as well. So I'm keenly aware that time spent is important and I plan on a LOT of that.
There is a big gun show near me this weekend, I'm going Friday and will be looking for books, DVDs, supplies, training aids, etc. It'll be a lot of fun!! |
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| Posted:
Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:00 pm
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 39
Location: 7 Lakes , NC
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| Add whoa to your list of obedience commands as the pup is raised. Do a little reading on Intro to gunfire and Intro to birds. If she will "Here" when you call her and Whoa when you want to stop her, I can guarantee you won't have a BAD day afield. In fact after you see her whoa on that first point I bet you'll spend more than the 2-3 days a year in the field that you were planning on. |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:49 am
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Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Rochester, MN
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EddieF,
Looking into NAVHDA (North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association) http://www.navhda.org/. Find a local chapter and contact one of its members and even visit during one of its training sessions. Its members are versatile dog owners like yourself ... some are new dog owners while others have many years of dog training experience. They are a great bunch of people that work together to train each others versatile breeds. Your dog will get as much bird exposure as you would like; both upland and water, and make the hunting season a time to demonstrate skills learned rather than a frustrating time spent teaching rather than hunting.
Natural ability of a hunting dog only goes so far. Without training the dog will not know what you expect of it, and you both will be unhappy in the field.
Good luck .. you have chosen a very rare breed indeed. |
_________________
"What lies before you and what lies behind you are small matters compared to what lies within you."
R. W. Emerson |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:21 am
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Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 65
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| gsilber wrote: |
EddieF,
Looking into NAVHDA (North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association) http://www.navhda.org/. Find a local chapter and contact one of its members and even visit during one of its training sessions. Its members are versatile dog owners like yourself ... some are new dog owners while others have many years of dog training experience. They are a great bunch of people that work together to train each others versatile breeds. Your dog will get as much bird exposure as you would like; both upland and water, and make the hunting season a time to demonstrate skills learned rather than a frustrating time spent teaching rather than hunting.
Natural ability of a hunting dog only goes so far. Without training the dog will not know what you expect of it, and you both will be unhappy in the field.
Good luck .. you have chosen a very rare breed indeed.
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Thank you. I've already done this and there is a local chapter and the good news is the field/property they hold their training is pretty nearby! Monthly they hold organized events there but every other Saturday people do go to train their dogs. I plan on joining now and just starting to go out there, meet some people and their dogs and watch them train and work their dogs.
I'm really excited about the whole thing! |
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