16ga.com ~ View topic - small nominal bore in Ranger by Hunter Arms

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 35

I have a Sears Ranger made by Hunter Arms around 1929 ....local machinist/gunsmith entended chambers and forcing cones and noted that the nominal bores are smaller than the conventional .670 ....actually measuring .659 right and .656 left. Upon pushing a std. rem. wad thru the barrels, there is noticeable drag, and when I try to push it thru the left choke which measures .639 (.17 constriction) with a cleaning rod, it's "really" tight...have to kind of pound it thru....so when it comes to reloading and pressures should I be concerned? The gun kicks hard with 7/8 ounce loads, and even though the stock dimensions are similar to my 870 pump gun which fits me well, can this extra felt recoil have anything to do with the size of the bores as described? Secondly, are there plastic wads which are "undersized" that would be more suitable for reloads in this gun?...I was loading in a winchester field hull (pretty soft), win 209 primers, 19 gr. unique, 7/8 shot w/ the std. remington power piston wads with a spreader.
Any input appreciated,
Terry

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2350 Location: West MI

Hello E, maybe consider loading your hulls the way they did when that gun was new. No "wad" as such just a felt, card or cork disk between the shot and powder. Also, I think you might have to stay on the lower preasure side of the reloading recipes. Good luck, Mike

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 35

Mike,
thanks....what if I got 16 gauge card wads, over the powder, with 35 lbs. pressure (mec 600)...then a twenty gauge claybuster wad with the 3/4 or 7/8 ounce shot...all propelled by 18 grains of unique or 16-17.5 green dot?
in theory, the card wad would provide the needed pressure to make it go, and the plastic wad might expand to give reasonable seal?
just a thought....
any other plastic wads out there that are smaller base?
thanks again,
Terry

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

You will have no problems shooting plastic wads in that gun.
Standard bore on a 16 gauge Parker is .662" give it .030" choke, and you have .632 constriction at the muzzle.

Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 35

thanks,
yes, I have shot reloads with regular plastic wads, but it kicks like heck.
the gun weighs a little more than my full frame 20 gauge wingmaster, has similar stock dimensions and kicks considerably more with 7/8 ounce loads.
I'm trying to get good loads that kick less and I noticed Ballistics has 18 gauge card wads that are .647 (between a 16 (.672) and a 20 (.625) ...so am I better served to use a regular 16 wad that is .11 bigger than the bore and .47 bigger than the left choke, or a card wad that is .23 smaller?
would it seal well enough as it expands? any experience with this sort of thing?

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

I doubt that your plastic wad is the cause of your recoil.
You need to reduce the weight of your shot, or reduce the velocity of the load. Just because the stock dimensions are close to your 870, doesn't mean it will kick the same. The gun probably doesn't fit you like the other one.

You have already identified two factors why your gun kicks harder than the 870, relative bore size and the plastic wad. Your gun predates the plastic wad by a number of years.

Precise bore size was not considered all that important during the era your gun was built. Paper and felt wads were less efficient and more easily squeezed down to accomodate the actual bore diameter they were passing through. People also believed the best guns shot "hard" I.E. they produced more felt recoil. This belief has a basis in fact. Tighter bores and shorter forcing cones help solid wads seal powder gases behind them and help produce higher pressures and velocities. So tighter bores also produce more felt recoil if all else is equal.

The modern plastic wad obturates (plumps out) far better than any solid wad. It seals the bore far better, adapts to changing constrictions better, and produces higher pressures and velocities--all else being equal again. This factor has led to the idea of overboring and lengthened forcing cones in modern shotguns to reduce felt recoil. doing so works, because the plastic wad works well with the changes. Pressure is reduced slightly, but a bigger bore has a better expansion ratio, so velocity is maintained or even improved slightly.

Plastic wad drag has little to no effect on felt recoil. the surface of the plastic wasd softens as it passes down the bore and is already slipperier than solid wads. However, because it is more efficient, it adds to the felt recoil from a tighter bore.

The solution to your problem is to have your bores uniformly honed out to at least .665 or bigger if possible and have the chokes adjusted to match. your felt recoil will be reduced, and your gun will probably pattern better as well.

If this is not possible, then using ammo with solid wads will reduce the recoil, but your loads will shoot less efficiently. If you reload, you might need to up your powder charges slightly to maintain useful velocities. Doing so will add to the felt recoil.

This whole matter is one of the factors why I tend to avoid older shotguns. They were built for the ammo of the day, which is not readily available anymore. Even the componants to reload the old style ammo are disappearing. Today's guns and ammo are made to compliment each other, and they do. I get the benefit of the improved technology that has gone into the development of the modern gun and modern ammo without the problems of trying to mix old technology and ideas with new ones.

Another thing to consider.
I notice you said that the chambers had been worked on. If i were you Id check to see if they had opened the chambers up any,by accident or design.
Slack chambers can cause hell of a kick, they allow the pressure to build up speed on the way back to you

Guest

Drop you charge weight back to 16 grains of Unique. You will still be betting a MV in the 1130 - 1150 range which is adequate for skeet and informal clay bird shooting and should reduce recoil to an acceptable level. If that doesn't work you may want to seek out the advice of a good shooting coach because that load is only generating about 14 ft lbs of recoil.

I have 2 LC smiths with .650 bores they shoot and pattern great with that same load you are loading. I don't notice anymore recoil than any other gun. I would guess the pitch or shape of the stock is different or if the chambers were lenthed wrong in some way. I don't know if a real steep shoulder into the bore would cause this or not. Have a good double gun smith look it over.

As pudlepointer has stated early L.C. Smiths 16 ga were bored to .650 around 1936 they were .662. What Hunter did with Ranger and Specials I don't know but could guess that they were the same.