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rayb
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:02 pm  Reply with quote
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Local dealer has a Gran Lightening in 16. price is 2K currently. Very nice handling gun, in the shop of course, haven't / can't shoot it. Price seems about average, maybe a little toward the upper range, but we are way out here and they are hard to find in these smaller towns.

Tried to follow the discussions previously on the Brownings, is the Gran lightening any better handling / special / lighter than the other grades? or just better / "prettier" wood? There's nothing else here to compare it with, so i can't tell. I suppose i could go to Dallas or some such place and try to shop around, but that would be a weekend trip with no sure prospect of doing any better.

what about this particular model? There's a cheaper "field" version available, i think, if one can be located..

Recommendations?

rayb

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:17 am  Reply with quote
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My opinion of the Gran Lightning is that it is too overpriced. Yes, it has prettier wood. However, it has no other distingishing characteristics. Once it is bought, it tends to depreciate faster than all other grades, because essentially, it is a grade one gun with fancier wood. Usually, Miroku/Browning will use that wood which is very nice but, not quite good enough for a grade VI gun due to some minor flaw like the checkering not being quite right or a small but noticable knot in the grain. I've also seen much better wood on the older grade III guns.

I've owned standard grade I guns that had nearly as nice a piece of wood and perfect checkering. At sale, these brought a premium nearly as high as a used Gran would. If you are looking to use the gun in the field regularly, go with the standard grade I, it will hold its value far better, especially with the occasional handling mark. Plus, to the Gran, the box becomes necessary to the average buyer to prove it is a Gran lightning and not a standard grade with a nice piece of wood and a rubbed down, dulled finish. I've seen this scam at guns shows. Buyer beware here. The only difference that is hard to fake is the finer checkering on the GL, although I've seen some very cleavor attempts. The Serial # is the dead giveaway. However, not many know how to read the grade from the number and can be duped.

If you are looking to invest, I'd buy a grade III or VI first. there is no way to fake one. Look for clean used ones with the box if you want the best investment for the coin. Also, be choosy about the wood. Some grade III guns have what could be called very nice standard grade wood with finer checkering. However, even without the box, A grade III with true high grade wood can be a solid investment.

All new guns depreciate whether they are shot or not. It usually takes decades and sometimes many decades for them to regain their initial value. High quality used guns will nearly always appreciate if well cared for.

I have a number of Grade III guns I bought used, but in excellent shape. Every one of them has about doubled in value in the last 5 years over what I bought them for. I have shot all of them, but have been very careful not to mark them up. A used Grade III 16 gauge with nice wood and in 95% or better will now bring at least 2K and some will bring even higher.

I was recently offered $2.6K for mine, which looks new, has an exceptional piece of wood, and has the box and all its papers. I did not sell. I think it will be worth much more in another 5-10 years. Also, because it is not NIB, I can occasionally shoot it if I wish. 5-6 years ago, that same used gun could be had for a little over 1.1-1.3K.

Not so the Gran lightning. A good used one will barely bring $1.2-1.3K now which is less than what it cost new 5 years ago. A used one five years ago often brought under 1K, some even less. Used gun dealers shy away from them unless you sell to them very low, actually at or near standard grade price. They are very hard to resell at a good markup, because most buyers see them as a poor value for the money.

There are of course, the occasional exceptions to these numbers. Some people sell too low, and others buy too high. However, the average market will bear my figures out 95% of the time.

But, some folks just gotta have the GL grade. They just like the wood. Each to his own. if you want to keep and fully enjoy the gun for life, buy what makes you happy regardless of the common market wisdom. You have to live with your choice and nobody else. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is not always based on cost. So please realize, I'm talking strictly from the investment standpoint and not from any sense of aesthetics. I tend to be plain, practical, and frugal in what I do. A plain gun, a well trained but middle fiddle dog, a practical car, good shoes, and a dull love life. Oh, well, at least I love the 16 ga.. That shows I'm at least not stupid to boot. Wink Smile
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rayb
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:19 am  Reply with quote
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thanks for that input. since it will be shot, and often, i will look harder for a field grade sort of gun.

Thanks

rayb

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:41 am  Reply with quote
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Yup. Just be patient and persistant. View my past posts about my gun trading woes and how it turned out. I got a very nice 1987 unfired in box grade I for under $1100 at Kittery Trading Post. It took over three monthes of persistant looking. I set a realistic market price I would pay and stuck to it. I passed on many other guns that were priced too high for what they were offering.

In buying and selling, everyone wants to go to heaven--nobody wants to die. However, Be realistic and don't hold out for the sweetheart deal. They do happen, but rarely. Do your homework on the gun you want. Find out the average market price. Ask accurate and to the point questions about the gun for sale, its condition, and the look over period. Be fair to the seller and make him be fair to you. Don't let 1 or 2 % queer a deal. That is being stubborn. However If the dealer won't be realistic and reasonable, thank him for his time and politely move on. Don't ever tell him his price is unreasonable. Let others do that for you. Just say you'd like to buy but can't afford it at his price. You are not inferring that he is being unfair. nobody, even the unfair ones want it rubbed in their faces. Leave the door open for later.

Some dealers are sucker fishing, set a way out of line price, and can be very inconsiderate and rude. Forget these jerks. They won't learn so don't argue once you figure them out. They are the type that are not nice people and will burn you any time they can. they have no respect for their clients. In other words, crooks. I ran into a real professional this spring. I later let him know it too after I got my gun. They hate that and it is fun to twist the devil's tail once you make heaven's gate.

Believe there is a better deal just down the road. Have faith. Not all sellers are crazy. Most folks just take a while to get a realistic view of things by constantly being passed over. Most eventually become reasonable if they truely wish to sell. Also, their circumstances can change. Just remain polite and pleasant. They won't give you a good deal if they don't like you.

I can't tell you the number of times I've contacted a seller back a month or two or six later only to get the gun at a decent price. In many cases, they have mentioned that they sold to me because I was nice about it and didn't rub the truth in. I just waited them out and let the other folks be the teacher.

Finally, be sure to thank them for their time and the fair price. Complement the gun too. Most folks would like to think they've made you happy. Let them. You never know what else is in their gun closet. I've found some real gems I was not even looking for after buying one gun at a good price. That can be when the sweetheart deal comes. Anyway, you have also made a friend in the process. That can never hurt.
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Scolari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:32 am  Reply with quote
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I would think this gun might be just a little heavier. Ususlly the better looking wood is more dense, but we couldn't be talking more than a couple of ounces. Maybe if if you like the way it looks, you should buy it. You'll spend more than that on a vacation. Your love for this gun will last longer than a vacation. It's only a few hundred more than the price of a field gun. Think about how nice it will look at the Sporting Clays field. Like my brother in law says, You just feel better shooting a nice gun.
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rayb
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:24 am  Reply with quote
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Scolari wrote:
You'll spend more than that on a vacation. Your love for this gun will last longer than a vacation. .



What's this "vacation" thing? Very Happy


Thanks for your input..

rayb

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:22 am  Reply with quote
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sco, I'd advise buying the Grade III in that case. It is even handsomer than a GL and will hold its value much better. The cost is not that much higher either.

However I'd first find out if the gun fits me. Shooting poorly with a beautiful gun that is awkward for you is like dancing with a prom queen who is too tall. You look stupid and everyone notices. Wink Laughing Anyway, it sure is fun to spend RB's money for him ain't it.
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kgb
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:38 pm  Reply with quote
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Rayb,
I too was looking for a Gran Lightning. One thing I liked better about the GL, besides the oil finish on higher grade wood, is the blued frame. Engraving doesn't do that much for me, to each their own. Daily checks of gunsamerica, gunbroker and auction arms, finally found a used Grade III on gunsamerica and bought that. Some people are shy about buying online, so far my luck has held out. I was looking for a Citori because I figured it'd weigh more than my M12's and M21's, and with interchangeable chokes is more versatile for target shooting. Plus, it's good for steel should I need to shoot that. I figured on having to pay 1700 at the lowest for a GL, the Grade III cost 2k and that was alright with me.

The gun I bought has 28" barrels. The Grade III has that plastic finish over the wood, I'm told the plastic would have to be scraped to remove it--chemicals won't work. I didn't really care which barrel length I got, for targets appreciate more weight out front anyhow and the guy I bought it from included some extended Briley chokes that might make a small difference. As stated, figured wood can be dense. However, someone paid some attention and the stock on my gun has been hollowed out a good bit. Weight is definitely forward.

The stock on this gun, I would presume on all Citoris with a pistol grip (is this called a Lightning grip?), is thin through the wrist, making it pretty nice in my mind. I carried the gun this past Sunday while out running the dog, and don't think I'd care to carry it all day. I'm biased; a Model 12 16ga (or 20) is perfect for carrying, all else isn't. Maybe 26" barrels would help, 24" barrels probably would, just seemed carrying it around the frame or forearm was like holding onto dimension lumber. Carrying by the grip over the shoulder was decent, that's all I got to say about that.

I don't keep every gun I buy, sometimes I'm just willing to shell out to try a gun I'm interested in especially if it's only 400 or 500 dollars and I'll take a loss of 50 or so. Figure that's a good price to "rent" a gun for a year or two. Figuring I might well keep a Citori for a while I started my search for a GL--I don't mind paying a little more for nice stocks, as someone in this forum has stated sometimes you can get above average wood on a given gun whether grade I, III or GL. You'll have to figure for yourself what you want and search accordingly. I tend to agree with those who believe if you plan on keeping whatever you find don't worry about resale. Best of luck in your searches!

kgb

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Parker Trojan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:22 pm  Reply with quote
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Ray: I worked 20 years in a gunshop that was a Browning Medallion dealer and we always had a hard time selling the Gran Lightning; about the only good feature is the oil finish. I wish the gun manufacturers would get away from the high gloss finish, most customers I talked to just wanted a nice oil job that they could touchup.
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rayb
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:39 am  Reply with quote
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bought it Saturday, same gun discussed in September, price was just over $1900

no other 16 ga o/u available here that i could hold in my hands

liked the oil finish and blued receiver

final price not that much more than the field grade gun they had & sold before i could raise the $$ to get it

looked very closely at the wood for grain direction, possible weakness, knots, etc. Was satisfied that it was a good strong but not spectacular piece of wood, as discussed in various places on this forum

only 3 chokes came with it, which i guess is standard

have loaded the boxes of pigeons and the thrower for a test firing this week

thank all of you for your advice and guidance, some of which i took and some i didn't, but it was all appreciated

rayb

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anything other than the 16 gauge is a passing fad
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:00 am  Reply with quote
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Rayb......
Congratulations. You made an excellent choice on one of the classiest looking, great performing guns Browning makes (or used to make). Wink
Enjoy!
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:18 am  Reply with quote
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Ray, regardless of what I or anyone else says, the most important person in this deal is you, the guy who has laid out the money. I'm very happy to hear you checked the wood out carefully. You obviously will not have to go through what I did.

Actually, 1.9K for the gun is not at all bad in Texas. Prices tend to run higher there for both new and used guns. Back in my gun trading/Florida days, I used to buy nice guns like Superposeds and higher grade or smal bore Win. 101 models in the recession hit Midwest while on business trips, and run them to Texas to certain FFL holding friends. We both made money on most guns I brought in. the guns would not have sold for nearly as much in Florida.

On a side note, I found out this last week that Charlie Callanan, my friend and salesman from Roach's of Cambridge, MA died in late summer. I was both shocked and deeply saddened.

Charlie was one in a million and one of the kindest, most caring, and knowledgeable shooters and gun salemen I've ever known, or are likely to ever meet. He grew up shooting. As a boy, he was known to hop a bus in Cambridge bound for Concord and Lexington to hunt birds. Boy how times have changed.

Charlie would not just sell you a gun, but would spend as much time as you would let him, teaching you the basics of shotgunning and skeet shooting. I can remember more than one occasion that Charlie would take an hour or more helping a new buyer/shooter with the basics both at the shop and then later at the Minuteman Gun Club in Billerica, MA. He never expected anything more than the satisfaction of getting a new shooter off on the right foot. Consequently, most everyone that knew him thought the world of him. He will not likely be replaced and will be missed by quite a number of folks, shooters and non-shooters alike. I know my world is a little sadder now.
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