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Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

I have an old French 16ga side by side with 2 1/2" chambers.

I've always limited my loads to 1oz and no more than 8,500 psi. These loads work just fine, but I'd like to develop a 1 1/8 oz load.

The only 16ga plastic wad available here in the UK is the SP16. I prefer to use fiber filler wads, since the SP16s are ferociously expensive over here.

Has anybody got any suggestions? The loading data I've got is either for 2 3/4" chambers, or relates to powders I can't get any more

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

Ever looked into buying components in US and shipping them to UK? Would that be cheaper?

I personally do not like fiber card loads, I find them inconsistent. Maybe just me loading them.

Get on Ballistic Products Inc website, check their prices and inventory of components. There others of course, but start there.

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Thanks; I contacted BPI just yesterday, and they're sending me some of their 16ga wads. Shipping is expensive, though; also, the UK customs add a lot to the cost. Works out at about double the price in the US.

I find fiber wads give the best patterns. Also, they're more forgiving than plastic if, for example, you're loading a batch of cases from different manufacturers. I get the impression they reduce felt recoil, too. Also, farmers over here aren't too keen on plastic wads littering their land. Most of all, however, I use fibers because I can make my own, and so (a) they're very cheap, and (b) I can always be sure of my supply.

Plastic wad cups tend to both tighten and thicken patterns. They not only protect the shot from bore scrub, but also lengthen the shot column which strings it out a bit more as it leaves the bore. The longer string helps keep the pellets from colliding as much as they do in a shorter string, so the pattern does not open as quickly. An 8500 PSI load pressure tends to do the same thing by lowering shot deformation and velocities. Unaltered French gun barrels tend to be more tightly choked per designation than US and modern British guns. Plastic shot cups, low pressures, and tighter French chokes might overdo things a bit.

I can understand you wanting to use solid wads. They do help open patterns a tad quicker if they do not lower pressures too much to allow this. However, unprotected shot is flattened by bore scrub and flies eccentrically. So those flattened pellets leave the string pretty early on instead of spreading more evenly and predictably. You will get a quicker opening pattern and a thinner one. This will cause problems of its own.

You might want to try some Polywad spreader inserts with your plastic wads to help open the patterns more quickly without thinning them out prematurely. The Polywad insert retards the shot into a shorter column so it strings out less. The shot cup still protects the shot from bore scrub so more pellets stay with the shot string longer. You end up with the best of both--an wider and more effective closer range pattern that also is more effective further out.

Guest

I'm making an assumption from your original post that you're trying to put together a low pressure recipe for your older gun. If so, send a PM to RWG requesting to join the Low Pressure Group and you will get ton of loads that will fill your needs. The cost is minimal and well worth the investment.

There maybe a problem when you increase your payload and still finding a correct load in the 8500 range.

One of the best inventions was the plastic shot wad which significantly improved shotgun performance when compared to the fiber wads. Not only did these wads protect the shot on ignition and the subsequent travel down the barrel; it would keep the shot load together to allow a shorter but more effective shot string. Using fiber wads will allow more shot deformation along with having the fiber wad disrupt the shot column, hence, a significantly longer shot string.

IMO, I would rather shoot a 1 ounce load with a R16 rather than attempt to put a longer distance performing load with a fiber wad. A fiber wad will work well for short to medium loads but will not be as effective as a longer distance load.

Just my $.02 for tonight...

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Thanks for your comments and recommendations; greatly appreciated.

I recently worked up a load using spreader wads for a friend with a 16ga drilling; it's very tightly choked in both barrels (odd, surely, for a drilling; weren't they designed with slugs in mind?) and he didn't want to ream out the chokes for game shooting. We found that spreaders plus fibers opened up the patterns by about 1 point of choke (ie imp mod instead of full) while still giving good even patterns. Of course, a pattern plate doesn't give you any insight into string length. The spreaders we used weren't the conventional cross type, as sold by BPI; they're basically a plastic over-shot wad with a plastic pin sticking out of the middle. They shouldn't work, but apparently they do. I've ordered some BPI spreaders to see how they compare.

We found that spreaders + plastic wads produced cartwheels, patterns with holes in them and patterns that only just clipped the edge of the plate (and not the same edge consistently, either...)

I appereciate what both of you say about fiber wads and deformed shot. However - heresy warning; readers of an orthodox turn of mind should maybe skip the rest of this post - is not-perfectly-round shot really such a bad thing?

I make my own shot using a copy of a short-lived backyard shotmaking outfit that was around over here about ten years ago. The shot isn't perfectly round; it only drops about 10" before it hits the coolant tank (2 inches of hydraulic oil over a tank of water). I use my moonshine shot for everything, clays as well as hunting; been using it for about a decade. I certainly don't hit fewer targets than I do when using factory shells; and from time to time I hit something I really should've missed.

By the same token, my homemade shot is significantly harder than factory shot. I alloy the regular soft lead with wheel-weights, solder and printers' metal. Pellets recovered from dead game examined under a strong lens don't show nearly as much barrel-wall-specific distortion (flats &c) as commercial pellets.

(Also; my pellets aren't perfectly uniform in size; they range from 6 1/2 to 7 1/2. Accordingly, they fly at slightly different speeds, extending the string)

All things considered, I'd rather use my moonshine shot than commercial stuff, simply because, over the years, I've come to the conclusion that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. But it definitely patterns and perfoms better with fibers than plastics.

I guess it's all part of the endless fascination of ballistics; the wide range of variables, the unexpected, counter-intuitive results that defy established theory; above all, the fun you can have expoerimenting and trying to figure it all out.

The overshot wads with the pins are the Polywad inserts. I've been using them for a number of years now. they work to perfection for me. I find they actually work best with a shot cup if the cup is not so shallow as to allow the pin to hit the bottom and become prematurely dislodged out of the shot column. The inserts work if the shot impinges on the pin and keeps the overshot disc squarely in place in front of the shot column until the column leaves the barrel. The disc stops the shot from stringing out through the tight choke as it normally would. This forces the pellets to collide more which in turn spreads the pattern quicker.

The pin or stem must be placed straight into the center of the shot column. A squared off wad ram does this perfectly if the disc is placed squarely in the center of the wad guide without tilting it. This is easier than it sounds if the ram is lowered smoothly with care, because the disc fits nicely inside the round wad guide and the squared end of the ram keeps it trued up as the pin is pushed into the shot.

A very even folded or rolled crimp is also required to keep the disc squarely in place on top of the shot and the pin evenly centered in the shot column. Uneven crimps force the disc to tilt which in turn, forces the pin out of the center of the shot column. If this happens, the spreading effect is destroyed and the shot column falls apart as it leaves the bore. The pattern will be blown and probably will be quite lopsided and the shot unevenly distributed. Taking a bit of extra time and care with the placement and seating of the insert with the wad ram will eliminate most of these probelms.

The Polywad company site has an illustration of how the pin should be placed to work properly. One look will explain it all quite nicely. A bit of practice will help you learn to seat the insert perfectly. I do not get any blown patterns with them anymore. They work exactly as the company claims they do. Hope this added info helps you.

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Many thanks for the info about the Polywads. My friend with the drilling supplied the ones I've been using, so I had no idea where they came from. I was very impressed with the results; thanks for explaining how they work.

I've been closing with a crimp, but suspected that a roll turnover would suit better (which is why I've been playing around with RTO heads, as recorded in my other thread in this group). Now that I've got an RTO head that more-or-less works, I can try some rolled loads and see if they improve matters. I think they'd help keep the overshot wad level and therefore keep the pin central in the shot column. That said, the crimped loads pattern just fine.

I now understand the lousy results with plastics; they're caused by the pin touching the bottom of the cup. The only 16ga plastic wad I have access to is the SP16, so trying a different wad isn't an option. Guess I'll stick with fibers for the spreader loads for now.

I must try a few spreader loads in my French sxs, which is also very tightly choked; I like it that way, but I'd be interested to see how they pattern.

Thanks again for the explanation.

The SP16 Remington wad is actually ideal for use with a Polywad insert if you are loading everything into a 2-3/4 inch standard length hull. However, the insert displaces exactly 1/8 ounce of shot. So instead of loading 1-1/8 ounces of shot in the SP16 as is usual, load 1 once only to leave room for the insert. The pin or stem will not hit the bottom of the SP16 shot cup if the disc is not crushed down with too much force. Just use enough force and ram stroke to sit the disc lightly on top of the shot. You must do this by feel as a seperate step since the wad has already been seated on the powder and the shot has been dropped in place. It is actually easy to do though. After seating the insert disc lightly on top of the shot, crimp closed as is normal. I use a progressive press to load my spreaders without a hitch, so a single stage reloader will work just as well and is simpler to use.

If there is not enough shell mouth left above the disc (right between a 1/4 and 5/16 inch) to crimp the shell closed without crushing the disc down, then you will need a less bulky powder or a shorter wad. The componants designated here are not designed for 2-1/2 inch hulls. Shorter hulls will require a wad with a shorter midsection and a shorter overall length. However, shot cup depth remains crucial and should be close to that of the SP16 for one ounce loads.

Another solutution would be to cut the Remington SP16 shot cup and wad base away from the midsection and use the right amount of solid card wads between them to get the perfect shot/wad/ powder column height in the shorter hull. Doing so should work quite well in fact. Many ammo manufacturers are now using seperate shot cups and wad base/gas seals with solid card wads between. Doing so allows the manufacturer a certain amount of flexibility a one piece plastic wad does not offer. This frees the manufacturer to use a standard set of cups, base gas checks, and card or fiber wads for different combinations and requirements. Actually, these seperate componants were available at one time. However, the popularity and convenience of the one piece plastic wad drove seperate shot cups and such off the market. I hope the market will one day offer these seperate plastic componants again to us reloaders as well. It would make special purpose shell loading for the 16 a lot easier IMO.

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Thanks once again for some really helpful advice.

Nearly all the shells available in the UK are 67.5mm or 65mm, as opposed to what I believe is the US standard, 70mm. The few 70mm shells available are made from a really thin, low-grade plastic that usually tears or splits on the first firing. I tend to discard these, or cut them down to 65mm if there's any hope of salvaging them that way.

My friend's drilling has 65mm chambers, and I've been loading 1oz over 21.5 grains Herco (a grain down on my standard fiber wad load, just in case the spreader affects the pressure; don't see why it should, but it's best to be cautious...); I cut this to 20.5 with the SP16. I'm pretty sure the pin of the spreader is bottoming out on the wad. I insert the spreaders by hand to make sure they're centred.

The logical answer would seem to be to nip a 1/16" off the end of the spreader pin, as and when I decide to give plastics another try.

Guest

That is precisely what folks that load Spread R Discs in their 2 9/16 inch or 2 1/2 inch rounds for their vintage American guns do.