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Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

dogchaser -

I take your point. However, the only 16ga shells I've ever reloaded were originally (ie from new) fired in the SXS, which I believe may well have an enlarged chamber. If the chambers in which the shells you reload are all within spec, you wouldn't encounter the problem. Also, from what other people have been saying here, it's possible that some Model 12s have tighter than avergae chambers. I don't know.

There may be a reloading issue here, as you say. I can't see where it's taking place. As I mentioned, I measured the hulls at each stage of the reloading process, and found no evidence of the plastic expanding. Within a thousandth of an inch or so (which is the margin of error I'd expect for me reading a Vernier) the plastic part of the case stayed the same size throughout. The head, naturally, got smaller when I resized it, then stayed the same.

True, I used a load that fits comfortably in the case with no need whatever of wad pressure (which I always apply, when required, at the crimping stage, rather than crushing the wad like a bug with the drop tube), and I made a point of using the SP16 wad, which is a sloppy fit in parallel-tube cases. I made a point of not being heavy-handed with the crimp start or finish stations, taking your point that during these operations the case is unsupported.

In support of my interpretation, may I remind you that fired cases originally fired in the other gun were critically larger in the plastic than those from the M12.

True, plastic is a stretchy, bouncy substance. But when it's subjected to heat (as at the moment of firing) it softens and can be moulded, and when it cools it retains a memory. I can't see how this [i]can't[/i] happen when a shell is fired. The shrinkage you refer to is clearly enough that the empty shell can be readily extracted. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that it nevertheless comes out of the chamber bigger than it went in, if it was materially smaller than the chamber to start with - which would be an issue with an oversize chamber, though not with one that's reasonably close to spec.

We'll see tomorrow, when I actually shoot some of these reloads. Wish me luck!

Anyway; a belated happy July 4th, and thanks again for taking the time to help me with this problem.

Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 42 Location: Iowa

Tony - I disagree. The problem is the memory (or lack of same) of the plastic in the crimp. If I were reloading good factory shells (skived, mostly 8 point, decent plastic) I could crank out darn near factory appearance shells from a 600 - first time-every time. With the largely throwaway 16 gauge hulls we are forced to operate with, some extra steps are sometimes necessary. You admit that for some loads you run shells through the crimping station twice with adjustments. I choose to use the finishing die instead. That way I don't have to tinker with the cam or stem adjustments.

Bill Layman

Bill

I like you're thinking..

I've only an old 600 Jr so I've not seen a finishing die up close.

How much of the plastic hull body is tapered?

It looks as though the finishing die is "loose" and self centering, yes?

Have you ever thought of a way to "hot rod" the crimp start or final crimp for full body support?

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Ah well. Back to the drawing board.

I ran the box of shells I'd reloaded earlier through the M12 this morning. Not good. The first dozen shells went through, just about; they chambered, but there was noticeable drag on closing the action. Somewhere around the 14th shot, the action bar disconnected from the bolt as I pushed forward. When I slid it back down the mag tube, it hooked up with the bolt again and the next few shots were OK; then it did it again.

After I'd finished up the box of reloads, I fired 10 rounds of factory. Once again, the action bar disconnected. It went back in again, and appears to be OK, but that's put me right off shooting reloads in the gun. From now on, only factory ammo.

Because the action's welded up (to comply with our mag restriction laws) I can't even take the thing to bits to see what's happened, which is extremely frustrating... Anybody out there familiar with this problem? If so; is it something I can live with, or have I just reduced a near-pristine Model 12 to scrap?

Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Posts: 24 Location: Manitoba, Canada

Good afternoon Lemming. Sorry to report that the only way an M12 can be properly maintained is to be able to break the shotgun down. If the Mag tube is "welded"...?... to the reciever then your in a bit of trouble. Try dropping the trigger assembly which will give you a look at the bolt and action slide release and such.

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

shootingsioux -

How is the action bar connected to the bolt? Is there a lug on the bar that fits into a slot on the bolt?

Bummer is putting it mildly; I've wanted a 16 gauge repeater for many years (they're extremely rare over here) and this M12 is the only one I've ever had a chance to buy.

It's interesting to compare the M12 with my other Winchester slide action, a 12g Model 120. The 120 is a big, graceless slab of a thing, all pressings and stampings, in total contrast to the grace and precision of the M12; but I've had the 120 for over 10 years, I very rarely miss with it, and if memory serves, it's jammed twice in all that time. I think I took the trigger group out and cleaned it back in '01; that's all the maintenance I've done or it's needed.

hey Lem - I was just up loading 410's when the thought occurred to me that I had created exactly your problem with the 410's .How I did this was loading backyard squirrel etc loads intended to be the ultimate CHEAP loads . What I was using was fiber wads only that I got from who knows where , but I've got lots . Same loads as my skeet loads but with the fibers only . These were once fired feds that were perfect to start with and were stretch bulged out in the tube to where they were unuseable . I could REALLY jam on the action bar and maybe get them in but the gun was getting beat up and had to stop . My 16 fiocchi's were the same - I wonder if the wad combo is the problem . I don't expect you'll see this with rems or feds , I've never been able to try this in 16 reloads as all the fibers I've got are 20 ga and even though they're very close to 16 , they are smaller . Funny ( or not ) how this old standby is a possible problem .

oops , sorry - there is a lug on the slide sleeve that runs in a slot on the bolt- it is usually springy but tight feeling when the bolt closes because on the mag tube under the foreend is a round flat spring that takes the jarring when the foreend closes the action .It can get tight if a lot of crud accumulates ,gets loose if the spring deteriorates . Probably not possible to check if your guns welded .

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

deer hunter -

Thanks for the info about the mechanism of the M12. Looks like that lug gets jarred out of the slot when I force the gun shut on a swollen cartridge. So; I won't be doing that any more. Factory loads (equivalent to $97 per case of 250) from now on, which means the M12 will only be coming out on special occasions...

I mostly use fiber wads, which I make myself out of Flexcell expansion joint filler material. They work out costing me something like a dollar for five hundred, and they work extremely well in the 12ga, the 20ga and the 16ga SXS. But I used Rem SP16s for the shells I loaded for the M12.

The Flexcell material is quite soft and malleable, so it doesn't tend to swell the case, even if you apply wad pressure. Also, I make my own wad cutters and turn them out 0.005" to 010" undersize, to make sure the wads are an easy fit. The pressure of seating them squishes them out to form an efficient seal (with a sixteenth-inch card on either side), but they don't bulge the case. Commercial fiber or felt wads, last time I bought any (which was many years ago) were harder and less forgiving.

I know fiber wads are out of fashion in the US, presumably because plastic wads are so cheap there and you've got such a wonderful range to choose from. Don't despise the fiber wad, though. It's cheap, it makes patterns every bit as good as plastics (with the right load, of course) and so long as you've got a wad cutter, a bench drill and a stack of Flexcell, you'll always have wads.

Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 42 Location: Iowa

Kivaari,

The main purpose of the finishing die in my case is to reduce the outside diameter of the crimp. Once that is done the remainder of the shell body pretty well takes care of itself. The die is fixed to the die plate (does not float) an as a consequence has a generous entry taper that runs from approx. .910" dia. to .744" dia. and is about .375" deep. The working part of the die tapers from .744" to .718" and is about 1.625" long. I don't feel that full support of the shell body is necessary or desirable.

My greatest complaint regarding MEC loaders in general is the lack of some kind of adjustment scale on the crimp cam. If a scale were present it would make setting easy and repeatable. I've been fooling with MEC's for longer than I care to remember and it still takes me a few "slightly imperfect" shells to get the press dialed back in after adjustment for case brand etc.

Bill Layman