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grouse gunner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:56 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Northeast Ohio

Hi All,

This concerns a 12 ga. so I will understand if it's edited out. Be assured I am a 16ga. affecciando. I currently own only four shotguns and three are 16s. I use a 16 ga. model 12 almost exclusively. However I'm sure someone here is knowledgeable enough to offer sound advice.

I am shopping for a 12 ga.O/U back-up to my model 12. Ideally I'd like choke tubes and steel shot capability. Primary use will be an informal skeet league, trips to Iowa's non-toxic public lands for pheasant and for very, very rare waterfowl forays. The steel shot issue is not critical as I can load bismuth or buy tungston-matrix for the few times I need to.

My child is going to college next fall so my gun budget will be very tight for the next five years. College graduation will coincide with my retirement and an expected buyout at which time I hope to get my "dream gun" and hopefully have a few years of good health to enjoy the "dream gun" and my dogs. On the dream list are: Merkel 1620 or Merkel 16 or 12 O/U; Perazzi O/U game gun in 16 or 12 ga; or an exceptionally well balanced game gun yet discovered.

I handled a Perazzi 16 ga. game gun at the Grand American a few years ago and have never forgotten the unique lively feel and since have learned very little about Perazzi's, but I have always had aquiring one in the back of my mind.

My dilemma is this. I have stumbled upon a 12 ga. 70's era Perazzi MT6 for about 2k, but the gun is a bit unusual, hence it's a little cheaper than most Perazzis go for I think. Hence the temptation to rush the retirement purchase. I know I can get a great aforementioned back-up for much less. 2k is more in my "dream gun" price range in the future at retirement time. With much sacrafice and some risk I can probably scratch the 2k together now though.

This gun has Stan Baker choke tubes installed but is in good shape. You may recall that these early Baker tubes swelled the barrels when installed. The stock has also been shaved at the comb and refinished. The comb is a bit non-symetrical but seems to fit me ok. It has a good fell even though it's 7.5 lbs.

Does anyone know how well the Baker tubes were regulated? I'm also wondering if choke tubes are available and at a reasonable price. I think I remember hearing that winchokes will fit Baker threaded barrels. Can I shoot steel through Bakers? Probably so if I want to invest in new Brileys, which will add to the expense.

A main concern also is whether or not I (or my widow) can ever recover a reasonable part of our investment when it comes time to sell if this turns out not to be the "dream " gun or I later find the retirement gun I really lust for and would have the needed 2k tied up in a back-up I can't sell or convert due to the unusual configuration of the Baker tubes and the shaved stock.

Your thoughts would sure be appreciated. Again, my main concerns are resale potential and the reputation on the performance of the Baker tubes.
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grouse gunner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Northeast Ohio

Hey, I forgot to mention.... a 16 Citori is on the "dream" list too, but for now I'm focusing on a 12 for the back-up role. I thought 16GG would especially appreciate this post script as you have opened my eyes to their many attributes. Actually, along with the 16 Perazzi that made an impression years ago, the few 16 Citori's I've handled stuck in my memory banks too for that exceptional "feel". They are pretty rare around the clubs I frequent but I will get a chance to shoot one before I buy, as there are one or two shooters who have them and will appear with them on the skeet field upon request for a trial run. Most of the guys I know that shoot them use them primarily for hunting as opposed to skeet but methinks that will change once they discover the 7/8 and 3/4 light loads I've mentioned to them.

Thanks,
Grouse Gunner
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:04 pm  Reply with quote
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I own and shoot two Perazzi trap models for all my ATA trap shooting. I am also very familiar with the work and reputation of the late Stan Baker. Nobody on the planet knew more about shotgun barrels and ballistics than Stan. his work was impeccable too. Stan was at the forefront of the overbored barrel developement and the lengthened cone developement too. Chances are the barrels on your MT-6 have lengthened cones and are overbored too. I doubt Winchester chokes will suit because the constrictions will be all wrong. However, the barrels will shoot right where they are supposed to if Stan did the job. that is a big if though.

There were a lot of other guys doing the same work back in the '80s. Some used the expanded barrel muzzle technique like Stan but most are not nearly as well done as his work. Skeet's gun shop did the same type of job and a few others. None guaranteed no point of impact shift like stan did. Most just claimed the gun would shoot within acceptable Parameters... acceptable being a very subjective term. Today, its not unheard of for a seller to claim his gun was one done by Stan, when the work was done by someone else using Stan'c chokes. He sold them separately and also offered tools to do the work. I'd want clear proof up front about this matter.

That said, you are looking at an MT-6 O/U trap gun. The designation MT stands for Montreal Trap. The gun was named for the Olympic Trap event held there. I think the year was 1976, hence the 6. Mechanically, there is very little difference between the MT-6 and my MX8 trap model except cosmetics. I believe both have drop out triggers and employ a modified Boss lock up. The receiver should have alternating lateral lines of blued and white steel machined into its sides giving it a racy appearance. The MX8 was originally case hardened like the Comp 1 and Mirage but they later went to blue. Mine is a Winchester import era, case hardened gun. Otherwise, they are all the same basic receiver. They are hell for stout.

Your gun should have 30" or 32" barrels. If they are not, then they were fitted as an after market item most likely or modified to suit. Check the serial numbers. If they match, the barrels have been shortened. If not, they may have come from an MX-8 skeet model, Comp 1, or Mirage. I would not recommend using steel though a set of Perazzi barrels. Replacement barrels start at $2500 plus fitting.

Perazzi trap and international skeet guns have a long well established reputation for excellence. They have dominated the Olympic and International trap curcuit for decades. They also are very popular among the top ATA shooters too. They are accurately regulated, rugged, reliable, well balanced, and responsive. However, they are hardly designed as a game gun because they are fairly heavy. 7-1/2 pounds sounds optimistically light. An MT-6 O/U trap model weighs over 8-1/2 pounds.

For all around upland use, I would get the 28" barrelled 16 ga. Citori and never look back. You will save on money and weight. you will be served by the Browning as well as any. It was designed as a hunting gun and it excels there. It is steel and non-toxic shot compatable and is fully warrented for such use. The Perazzi is not.

The 16 gives very little up to the 12 for upland hunting. If you must use a 12 ga. steel shot gun for waterfowl, get a Mossberg 500 pump. They are rugged, reliable, handle steel, and are cheap to replace. GG.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:52 pm  Reply with quote
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Cool


Last edited by MaximumSmoke on Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:12 pm  Reply with quote
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The problem with a 'special' gun is that it'll probably only be 'special' to you and a difficult re-sale. BUT if it's your dream gun it might be worth it. (unfortunately I've been through lots of 'dream guns' that didn't turn out so dreamy) Let us know how things turn out.
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grouse gunner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Northeast Ohio

Many thanks to the both of you. Your replies were extremely helpful and informative. I was confident that some dedicated knowledgeable shotgunners on this forum would have the info I needed and I was right! I was in between appointments and in kind of a hurry when I saw the Perazzi so I didn't get complete info. from the dealer or remember all that he said..... but now that you mention it I do recall he said it may have started out life as a trap gun and then had the barrels shortened. That would explain the lowering of the comb also. 16gg you were right on the money. The only two tubes included are .005 and overbored to +.008 as I recall.

It appears it is a trap gun that someone has turned into a skeet or field gun. He did weigh it in my presence on the standard gun shop baby scale and it showed 7.5lbs. and felt like about the same. Who knows how accurate the scale was. It sure handled well though. It had the case colored receiver and a schnabel forend and was marked MT6. He mentioned it was introduced for the olympics but now I know what the "MT" designates.

The scoop revealing that type Baker tubes which were done by other shops are out there was an eye opener. If ever relevent I'll make absolutely certain any Baker type barrels I might want to purchase are the real thing. I called Briley inquiring about tubes for this gun and they agreed with what 16gg just said. That is, that Stan Baker was quite a craftsman and could do things that others could not. They advised that they would trust his work as much as and in many cases more than more modern original factory installed choke tubes.

I'll admit that I was probably a bit enamored by the Perazzi name and the prospect of finally getting one for much less than the usual price, but I think I'll slow down and pass on this one for now, due in part to the valuable info. you guys provided. But I still think it's a sweet responsive piece.

My post was a bit misleading in that I didn't make it clear that the Perazzi would serve primarily as a fun skeet league and a back-up field gun and for stationary type hunting, not as a primary upland carry gun. I have my model 12 16 and another light well balanced 12 for that. Actually although a Citori 16 is going to get a hard look and be on my list, I was focusing on a 12 for a back-up and as a heavier gun for the skeet league. I really like the model 12 for skeet but I would like a heavier O/u in the stable also. I'm having a little trouble with the model 12 on doubles, but I've only been shooting it less than a year and not too often lately. That will change when the league starts up in earnest in April. Shooting doubles and the pump is the subject for a future post. I haven't masrered itat all yet after growing up on an O/U but I love the model 12. Balances like a dream.

Souixshooter, thanks for the Beretta tip. I owned an Essential 686 for a short time and shot it better than just about anything I've ever owned. I'm working on getting it back.

Again, thanks to you gents for the insight on the Perazzi. I'll be keeping your advice in mind and just may find that a 16 Citori meets all these needs and would make a dandy skeet O/U with light loads too. I'll at least have the chance to do a lengthy test drive with one before buying.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:22 am  Reply with quote
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If the Beretta suits you, they have some very sweet handling skeet guns available. There is little to no difference in the way the skeet and field Berretta O/U guns are set up. Plus, there are a bunch of good used 680 and 682 models around, with and without subgauge tubes. I never argue with success. If you shot the 686 well, then a 682 skeet model will fit you right down to the ground. Plus, its designed to be a little easier to maintain as a high volume shooter and to fit accessory barrels to. Good luck. 16GG.
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Chukarman
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 173
Location: S. E. Arizona

IMHO, Perazzi makes the finest target guns available. The light and lively feel is a consequence of their excellent design, and belies their actual weight.

I have owned two 12 ga. Perazzi Mirage guns, and currently have an MX20 with fixed chokes. This after I spent considerable money and effort on building up a Beretta 20 gauge Silver Pigeon for traveling wingshooting. As soon as it was finished, I knew it would not suit me - too whippy. The MX20 has 29.5" bbls and fixed chokes (IC/Mod) and fits like a glove.

The TM1 is sort of the poor cousin of the Perazzi family, a good gun that commands little respect among status concious Perazzi shooters. Do not look for appreciation in value, just shoot it a lot.

C Man

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:31 pm  Reply with quote
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My TMX is the upscale version of a TM1 and designed for Dan Bonillas, one of the truely great modern era trap shooters. Neither are made anymore. Although I've heard rumblings that Perazzi has an upgraded version slated for release later this year or next. I can't confirm it. MyTMX was bought from a very good and kind old friend at a bargain price. I had Jacomo Arraghini rebuild it. He is about the best and fairest priced Perazzi smith on the planet IMO. Needless to say, the gun works flawlessly.

The reason Perazzi discontinued them was two fold. First, the guns are indestructable. The market could hardly absorb anymore and maintain a profit. There were too many good used ones out there. Second, Perazzi came out with an adjustable ribbed ungun to compete with the Kreighoffs and Kolars and wanted to steer the market their way. They should have stayed with their strengths.

Now the price is steadily climbing for a good used TMX and Perazzi wants to capitalize on the demand. The TM1 is also going up in my neck of the woods. Some guys love the small, precise image a low ribbed single barrel casts in their secondary vision. It helps them clobber singles and H-cap targets with precision. The TM1 will outlast 5 BT-99 Brownings, not that the BT-99 is a bad gun. It just isn't a Perazzi for longevity. Plus, the new BT-99 guns aren't a patch of the older ones.

I really appreciate the straight back thrust and lowered muzzle jump of the TMX. It is less tiring to shoot over longer strings of targets like those 200 and 300 bird days. The drop out trigger is a joy to service and clean. It also has the famous Perazzi characteristic of never shifting its POI no matter how hot the barrel gets. I'll probably die with this gun. So, you can't have it until I'm through with it. Wink
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RWG
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:39 pm  Reply with quote
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GG:

If you decide to go back to your original Perazzi "wish" gun, I know a gentleman with a near mint 16 ga. (MX-16) P-gun that is for sale. 29.5" barrels (IC/M), fixed trigger (I believe all the 16s are fixed trigger), nice wood (rare on P-guns without a 3 grade wood upgrade) and good dimensions. It will cost you more than the gun you are looking at, but its the gun you want. Just let me know if you want the contact information for the seller. (He's not "on line".) Russ
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Highcountry
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:13 pm  Reply with quote
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GG:

I'll throw a couple of recommendations at you which are within your budget and are extremely nice guns. The first is a Marocchi which was highly recommended by Michael McIntosh. They are considered a working man's Perazzi and have a similiar bolting mechanism as the P gun. They have finely struck barrels that balance a 30" gun nicely. I picked up the 99 series sporting model lately and I am very impressed with what you get for the money. I believe they originally came in the Contrast model then a Conquista model and now a 99 model. McIntosh's book, The Gun Review Book, has a nice review of the Contrast/Conquista models. Marocchi has a nice website and there a couple on Gunsamerica.

http://www.marocchiarms.com/index.php?menu=68&sprache=0&product_id=7[/url]

The second gun is a H&K Fabarms. The FFL who received my Marocchi showed me the Fabarms Max 2 Sport AS. He is selling them for about $1800. Here's Fabarms webpage:

http://www.fabarm.com/shooting3.htm

Good luck in your search

Hc

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RWG
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:46 am  Reply with quote
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For a lively SC 12 ga. under $2500.00, the B. Rizzini Premeir SC gun (my favorite) and the Ceasar Guerini Summit SC are hard to beat. They are very lively guns even with 32" barrels. A lower price alternative to the Premeir is the Sig Imported B. Rizzini SC model, which were being closed out at $1500.00. Truly, a bargain if you like matte finished barrels.

But, if you want a 16 for targets and stationary hunting, the Perazzi MX-16 is tough to beat. Russ
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:04 pm  Reply with quote
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Thank you HC for jogging my memory. Marrochi is the name I've been wracking my brain for these past few monthes. Marrochi is the main supplier of the Perazzi type generic actions used for the Rizzini and other guns built around this action. They are very good guns for the money. The company makes more as a parts and barreled action supplier than a gun manufacturer. So they do not play up their line in the US.

I tried aConquista as an SC target gun. It swung and shot as well as any Perazzi clone I've ever handled. The only two things it lacked were the drop out trigger I love on a target gun, and the famous Perazzi no shift no change of POI guarantee on their barrels. This latter point is of no consequence for an SC gun but is very important on a trap gun due to the higher rate of fire per minute a trap gun is subjected to, especially a doubles gun. Here Perazzi is still the best IMO.
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RWG
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:20 pm  Reply with quote
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16gg:

Not to take issue, but B. Rizzini makes all their own actions, monoblocks, and other parts (barrel tubes maybe outsourced, I can't remember) on their CNC machines in their plant. Not sure who Marocchi might do outsourcing work for but its not on B. Rizzini actions.

There are a some good articles in Clayshooting USA, Shooting Sportsman Magazine and a few other publications that tell the B. Rizzini story and show the actions, monoblocks, stocks and other parts being made inhouse on their machines. Russ
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