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john555
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: western canada

Just returned from the skeet field after witnessing a sad and dangerous incident. One of the regular squad shows up with a huge grin and a cased gun. When enough people have gathered around he unzips the case and shows his latest aquisition. A real fine looking 16 gauge Stevens double. Nice case colouring, double triggers and pretty good wood for a Stevens. After the usual " boy , does that swing nice " and a lot of undisquised envy, we start shooting. Station #5 high bird and the right barrel bursts embedding a piece of shrapnel in the wall of the low house. Everything stops and we just stand there a little stunned. The barrel has a ragged hole about five inches by one inch missing just forward of the breech face. The guy holding the pull cable has his face peppered with debris but is fine, thankfully we all wear shooting glasses.

The shell was a 3/4 ounce, light load, reloaded Remingtom, same reload that we have shot thousands of times. We all had handled the gun and between the group have considerable gun knowledge. No one noticed any apparent defects.

I thought this incident worth telling considering the increased interest and purchasing of older doublebarrels.

Regards
John
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:22 pm  Reply with quote
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Lucky no one was hurt---was it possible the barrel had a weak spot what was never noticed Question Question Question What a shame to see a shotgun like that reduced to the scrapile Evil or Very Mad Shocked
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:21 am  Reply with quote
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Surprised to hear about a barrel burst on a Stevens if it wasn't Damascus. Those guns are way overbuilt, very thick barrel walls. Depends on the type of shells being used, but my bet would be maybe a detached base wad resulting in an obstructed bore.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:38 am  Reply with quote
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Bingo Larry. I'm betting it was a stuck wad or a stuck base wad. In all the excitement of having a new gun to shoot, this vital point got overlooked. Always look down your bores after every shot if you have a hinge gun. It cannot hurt. It's also why I trust hinge guns for trap and skeet over all other types. I also blow down the barrel of an auto or pump after shooting reloads. However, you can't do this for pairs. I teach this simple precaution to all my new students. I've seen this unfortunate and dangerous thing happen and have posted about it before. Its a shame and it does not have to happen. 16GG.
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Foursquare
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:20 am  Reply with quote
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John wrote:
The shell was a 3/4 ounce, light load, reloaded Remingtom, same reload that we have shot thousands of times.
Regards
John


I agree, it was either a stuck wad or base wad. I doubt the gun can be blamed.
Pete
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john555
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: western canada

I suspect that you are all correct in the stuck basewad idea. I sub-conciously check my barrels for fouling as I was taught by a elderly gentleman many years ago when I started skeet shooting. He was the owner of two damascus barreled guns and always stressed the importance of checking for obstructions. The burst barrel certainly reaffirms the teachings that he drilled into me in those long ago days .


Regards
John
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:19 pm  Reply with quote
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One other possibility--although I still tend to lean towards a stuck base wad and obstructed bore--would be a load with excessive pressure. To my knowledge, no one publishes formulas for 3/4 oz 16ga loads, so unless you send them off to be tested for pressure, you're swimming in strange water. One would tend to think that a light shot load means light pressure, but it ain't necessarily so--which is why the reloading manuals tell us to be careful about substituting components. And that's why belonging to the 16ga group and getting their data on loads that have been tested is well worth it for those of us that reload.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:16 pm  Reply with quote
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Maybe! The burst took place down bore and not at the chamber. Usually, a burst from excessive pressure will happen in the chamber area and will happen before the shot column leaves the case. It also takes a hell of an overload to do it. Most full bursts from too much chamber pressure are a lot more forceful too. In some cases, the chamber gives some but does not fly apart. This is usually the case.

In the case of obstructions, the air between the stuck wad and the oncoming shot/wad column rushing up to it gets compressed. The building pressure obturates both the front and rear obstructions until the area between them ruptures. If the stuck wad were closer to the muzzle, usually the burst is less violent because the barrel ruptures along a longer line. Sometimes all that happens is the barrel bulges and the pressure is relieved enough to let the obstruction pass out of the barrel.

This case sounds more like a close to the chamber obstruction. Howevere. Its all moot now. the only real lesson is check the bores and know your reloads. I do both. So far, so good.
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john555
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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Location: western canada

Good advise Larry,

Joined this forum in 2004 and the low pressure group shortly after. Lots of sound knowledge in both groups. As for the 3/4 ounce loads, if I had the time and could remember where I put my records, I could show you data on 5/8 loads all duly tested. I started shooting 16 in the early 70s and reloading shortly thereafter. If one has the contacts, in my case mostly military, you would be amazed at some of the 16 reloads that are used throughout the European counties.

Regards
John
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XVIgauge
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:57 am  Reply with quote
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A guy at our club burst a barrel on a Citori .410 last year. Seems that when he reloaded his shells, there was a small hole left in the center of the crimp. To fill the hole, he dribbled Elmer's glue into the hole. He evidently used too much glue as his shot became one solid mass w/ no give or expansion. Some of you more knowelegeable in ballistics could probably explain how it happened, but anyway, his barrel burst just forward of the breech as the massive shot slug tried to exit the chamber.
XVI

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"Terror lies not in the bang, but in the anticipation of it."
Alfred Hitchcock
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:03 am  Reply with quote
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I've seen guys use candle wax, but Elmer's . . .

Guy, John described the burst as being just forward of the breech face, which is why I put in the added thought on pressure, although my best guess would still be a bore obstruction, likely from a stuck base wad.

While we're discussing this subject, I might as well fess up. I've done it too, sort of, but with an M-60 machine gun. My military career goes back far enough that my first MG experience came with the old Browning .30. With those guns, if you had a jam, you simply pulled back on the operating slide. Well, although I had qualified with an M-60, I'd never had any instruction on how the gun functioned, and when the gun failed to fire, I did exactly what I always did on a .30. The M-60, unlike the old .30, fires from an open bolt position. When you pull the trigger, the bolt goes forward and the gun fires. I already had a round in the chamber, and when I pulled back the slide, I put another round behind it, in front of the bolt. When I pulled the trigger, one round detonated the other. The one in the chamber went downrange, as near as we could tell. The brass from the one behind it went flying around, but neither I nor my assistant gunner was injured. The second bullet stuck, sort of sideways, about half way down the barrel. Barrel did not burst, nor even bulge, and we were able--with the aid of a mallet and a cleaning rod--to clear the bore. However, it did have some interesting new rifling grooves.

Thought I was going to have to pay for that one from the evil look I got from a LT, but I didn't.
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Foursquare
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:08 am  Reply with quote
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John,
Can you give specifics as to the load?
If you have access to the remains of the gun it would be interesting to see if there are any circumferential marks in the bore at the muzzle end of the rupture.
If you're wondering why, let's just say that, in a previous career, I had a LOT of experience investigating burst barrels and bore obstructions.
Pete
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john555
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: western canada

FourSquare

Here is the load;
Plastic Rem hull
Unique powder 15.grains
Win 209 primer
Rem R-16 wad
3/4 oz #9s and two puffed wheat

I do not think I will have the opportunity to examine the barrel and breech face for any marks as it was my understanding that damaged gun was going the way of the Titanic in a local river.

Regards
John
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grouse gunner
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Northeast Ohio

OK I'll try this for the third or fourth time. Hope it finally goes through.

This topic is scary. Since catching 16 ga. model 12 fever real bad about a year ago I've been using my model 12 as my every day skeet gun and dove gun after shooting hinge guns for 35years. With the hinge I never was concerned about base wads, cards, felt, off guage wads, etc. causing an obstruction in the past because I shot a 12 ga. and like everybody, I used one piece wads and compression formed hulls. I also visually checked the barrel often when hunting and after each station on the skeet field. Of course if even the slightest suspicion of an obstruction came up like after a soft report or squib load all shooting would stop until the barrel was checked.

I never once witnessed a damage or dangerous incident. Like probably most of us, occasionaly we'd see a stuck wad from someone missing a powder drop or otherwise having a squib load. The shooter and or a squad member has always noticed it and it was always cleared prior to the next shot.

Here's my concern: obviously with no compression formed hull available in 16 ga., do we have to start worrying about pieces of the plastic base wad breaking loose from the black Rems? How about cards and felt? Ditto for 20 ga. wads in the 16 hull. Will blow-by break the wad up and cause a problem?

I use the black Rems almost exclusively. I load them until they crimp so bad I have to force them into the chamber occasionaly or until they are otherwise useless. I also use 20 ga. wads a lot along with Rems and Gulandi. Haven't had any problems.

After reading past posts about fiber wads I decided not to load any. Do we need to start checking the black Rem base wads with a light prior to loading each batch or be concerned with the other issues mentioned above? The last thing I need is a sub-conscious ammo safety worry ti further erode my inadequate concentration skills. I'm just starting to see improvement with the pump and I don't want to give up "the greatest repeater ever made" and go back to only a hinge.

Obviously no matter how careful one is, you can't check your barrel between shots on doubles or most guys won't after normal reports even on singles.

I'm curious as to whether or not the barrel was visually checked prior to the fatal shot. The load sure seems proper and innocious enough. My guess would be a piece of the base wad too. I figured it was an old Federal fiber wad hull, but now that we know it was a Rem I'm even more concerned. Can the black Rem base wad break loose and cause an obstruction during firing even if the bore was clear? Ditto for wads, cards etc? I'm gonna keep shooting and enjoying my pump and my light loads but I'd sure like to have peace of mind and put these concerns to rest.

Any thoughts?
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662
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:44 pm  Reply with quote
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"but now that we know it was a Rem I'm even more concerned. Can the black Rem base wad break loose and cause an obstruction during firing even if the bore was clear?"

As someone who's thinking about reloading and saving black Rem hulls, I'd like to see this answered, too.
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