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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Rem Screws us again....
Dave Miles
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:26 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Michigan

Woodcock. if you say it loud enough and long enough, and most of us join in with you. Just maybe someone will listen, and take notice.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:43 pm  Reply with quote
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Woodcock, you bet your bippy. You shout as long and loud as you can. it does work. Browning brought out the 16 guns in 1987 because someone was yelling for them. They stil make so many every few years because someone yells for them. I got the R16 wad back because I yelled at Remington for 5 years.

You be as redundant as you please and more power to you. Most of us could take the hint and join it. I've been hammering Remington to use their 20 gauge LT frame to good advantage. I'm still convinced its possible. All the measurements say so. even if they don't, somebody will overhear the noise and do it. Hell I'd settle for an LT-870 pump in 16. I'd even prefer it, because of all the light 3/4 oz loads I shoot that probably would not function in a gas auto. That is why I picked up a used Itaca 37. I had only that choice in 16. A nice lightly made 870 would have suited me just as well. I'd have bought one in a heartbeat.

We could damned sure use all the redundency we can get. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. Raise hell and get plenty.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:01 pm  Reply with quote
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The Ruger gold label is light and sleek why not 16 gauge on that frame.
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woodcock
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:31 pm  Reply with quote
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'Ya know Ruger might just be the very guys that could be persuaded--------------
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:07 pm  Reply with quote
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I moved the 'Shot Show Report' thread by brdhnt from 2-13-06 to the top of the 'General Discussion' Forum. Lots of conversation about Ruger and lots of hope (seemingly dashed) for a 16g. Gold Label soon.
Anybody out there with an in at Ruger? The Las Vegas guys, Walt Lister, Square Load and I could alternate picketing the HQ in Prescott.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:13 pm  Reply with quote
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If Ruger goes anywhere with its GL, it will be to a 20 or a 28, not a 16. They've always been very cautious in the way they approach the market. Look at the Red Label. First it came out in 20, then it was some time before it came along as a 12 and a 28. (And they're all too heavy, in anything but 28 IMO.)

Of course the other factor that hurt the 16, which I did not mention previously, is that of all the popular gauges in this country (except the 10), the 16 is the only one that's not an "official" gauge in skeet. Events in 28 and 410 even, the latter of which is useless for most upland applications, the former of which has limited use. But I guess they had to have something more challenging than the 16, to keep everyone from shooting straights in all the gauges.

Ammo . . . why should Rem/Win/Fed worry much about the 16? Again, we are not an official gauge in skeet, which is why there are no 16ga target loads--and that's where the volume is. Hunting stuff comes in a distant 2nd. And Rem/Win/Fed all have at least two or three lead loads for the 16: a cheap 1-oz load that can be used for targets or lighter game, and a 1 1/8 oz high brass load for birds like pheasants. (Fed even has a 1 1/4 oz magnum.) Why would they bother with anything else, other than to be nice to our very small niche market and give us a halfway decent hull we can reload? Given the popularity of vintage shotgun events, there's probably about as much call for an American-made 2 1/2" 12ga target load, at reduced pressure, as there is for a 16ga target load. As for Rem marketing the R-16--that was a pretty easy thing for them to do, seeing they still use the wad in their 1 oz game loads. Winchester moved its 16ga 1 oz production offshore quite some time ago, which means they no longer use nor produce the WAA16. Totally different story for them to gear up to make that wad--not to mention the fact that the AA hull, for which it was designed, is something they don't make any longer anyhow. A white elephant to be used in a white elephant . . . Some of us, like me, do have a fair supply of those old AA 16 hulls, but some of us, like me, also have a fair supply of the WAA16 wads to use in them.

As far as the 16 having regained popularity, I'll stand up and take some of the blame for that, because I've spilled a fair amount of ink on the virtues of the gauge. Why do we have our own website, and why do you see so many posts when a 16ga thread appears elsewhere? Because we're lonely orphans, and we're happy to find other lonely orphans to talk to! No need to discuss reloading for the 12, 20, or even 28 or 410. They have good components, readily available, and plenty of formulas published in reloading manuals. And they don't have any trouble finding guns--although the small bore guys do have to pay a little more for theirs, in some cases.

The ammo makers know what they sell, and they know what they sell to us is but a tiny drop in a pretty large bucket. Again, we end up with the specialty and European folks (Polywad, B&P, Kent, Eley, etc) taking up the slack. If we want something different from what Rem/Fed/Win makes, that's where we go.

And before we go crying in our beer too much, if I'm out hunting somewhere, I've discovered that I'm much more likely to find 16ga field loads than I am 28's (of ANY kind, unless I'm in a pretty big sporting goods store). And if you really want a challenge, try finding 24ga, or 2" 12ga, or even 2 1/2" 12ga. Other than the latter--and even then, not all that often--even big sporting goods stores are likely to look at you as if you just landed from the moon.

We're not nearly as bad off as we think we are.
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IDcut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:16 am  Reply with quote
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I have to agree with Larry! Granted the big three U.S. ammo makers may not be responsive to our needs, and we do need to keep hammering our message on them, but there is a decent selection of European and specialty loads to fit most all target shooting/hunting situations, both 2 3/4" and 2 1/2" shells IMO.
CH Smile
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:38 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

We might as well feel satified with it, because our market segment is so small, that what exists is for the most part, what we're going to have to live with. It's not personal; it's just business....

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gspowner
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Bend, OR

I've had the same thought as XVI Gauge. The American gun manufacturers seem to sell a lot of rifles by bringing out a new cartridge or model variation every few months. These cartridge variations are always ballistically similar to existing and often quite old cartridges. There are probably at least fifty cartridges in production that you'd call "deer rounds".

Anyway, the conventional wisdom among American firearms manufacturers seems to be that that the shotgun market is fundamentally different than the rifle market. There are obviously few risk takers in the upper management of American gun makers. Bill Ruger was a successful exception. One has only to look at magazines like Shooting Sportsman, Upland Almanac, Pointing Dog Journal, Double Gun Journal, Gray's, Sporting Classics, etc. to see that there is a growing interest in shotgun sports and that people are willing to spend money for their sport.

The marketing people at Remington and most other American makers fail to realize that what people are looking for in shotguns is basically quality, at least for people who will shell out for a number of different shotguns. That is where the market is. A few of us will buy a 16 ga 870 Express as a backup or mud gun but what we really want, at least I do, is a nice lively piece at a fair price.

A well made 16 ga fits the lively criteria very well. That is why many of us are interested in older guns, such as Winchester M12's, Rem. 31's, Ithaca 37's, and older doubles that offer a lot of quality for the money. SS did a survey and I remember that the average subscriber had three dogs and nine shotguns. If you have that many shotguns, you probably spend more on ammo than the average guy too. Certainly the dog food companies are aware of this market segment, but so far Remington is oblivious.

What we need is another Bill Ruger, may he rest in peace.
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Ol' Southern Lawyer
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 339
Location: Peoples' Socialist Republic of North America

Larry!

Please! You is messin' up my fantasy, dude! I have picked up a couple Gold Labels and really liked the feel. Even the short stock os OK for a limbsaver pad to be set on. I just keep daydreamin'...Ruger will make this one in 16 gauge...mmmmmmm!

Please tell me my fantasy will come true, Ruger execs!!

OSL

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Patrick Henry
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XVIgauge
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:45 pm  Reply with quote
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Are GPSowner and I the only ones?
16gg, I appreciate your comments and I basically agree. You ARE preaching to the choir. My comment was that I didn't think it was wrong, farfetched, or even unusual that the market is infested w/ rifles and their 100's of cartridge variations; and shotguns only share a handful, but, I did say it was peculiar.
We seem to be chipping away little by little. I don't forsee our beloved 16 gauge ever dying. I just hpoe we don't lose the ground we have gained.
XVI

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Mark Larson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Washington

Hi all, this is my first post here. I get frustrated about this subject like the rest of you. I just bought a Lefever 16 on the small 20 ga frame due to its sublime handling, and it was made in 1902! Can you believe that over a hundred years later, we are still pining for an American manufacturer to duplicate the magical handling qualities of classic 16's? It's hard to fathom given the other huge advances in technology and gunmaking America has seen. Instead of progressing, we have been regressing. Because of this, classic things, and guns in particular, remain classic for a reason: They are Superb!!

Imagine for a moment if Ruger had the courage, foresight and initiative to offer the GL in a 12, 16, AND 20, all on that same diminuitive frame, and with DOUBLE TRIGGERS as an option. The shotgun world would have gone crazy! I certainly would own one, especially in that sub $2k range. People wouldn't believe it, and they would have hit a home run right out of the park on their first try. Instead, they took the Very conservative bean counter approach, and their first wave of interest has already hit the beach. It's about marketing, and creating excitement. The RBL has done well because it is a sub gauge with options, and they created a lot of excitement in a short time. I would have ordered one if it were available in a 16. If we could just get them (or Ruger) to add a 16ga. extra barrel set! How hard and expensive could it be?

Let's keep hammering away at them, they have to take notice. Hopefully it won't be another hundred years.
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