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Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

What does it mean exactly when a SxS is said to be "off face"? What needs to be done to correct it and what would be the expense to repair it?

Matt

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

In simplest terms, the barrels are loose on the action. Two good tests for this, if the gun doesn't rattle with the forend on:

1. Remove the forend. While pushing the top lever to the right, as if to open the gun, see how much play there is in the barrels. Ideally, there should not be any.

2. With the forend removed, grasp the gun by the muzzles. Holding it vertically, move it back and forth rapidly as if you had a broom and were sweeping the floor, or a paddle and you were paddling a canoe very swiftly. You'll feel it if there's looseness. Again, everything should remain perfectly tight if the gun is on face.

There are basically 3 proper fixes for a gun that's off face. (Some fly by night gunsmiths peen the lump--or underlug--which will make the gun feel tight, but will only last for a short time. You can also cut a piece of shim stock to fit around the hinge pin, or inside the bite of the lump. That's actually not a bad "shade tree mechanic" fix for a cheap gun on which you don't want to spend money for a proper fix.) But the proper ways are:

1. TIG weld on the lump to build it up until you get a tight fit again. This is the cheapest fix, probably in the $150-200 range.

2. Cut a C-shaped section out of the bite of the lump, then refit a slightly thicker, new C-shaped section into the lump. This is sort of what you're doing when you use shim stock for a temporary fix, but this one is permanent. It's the traditional British fix (unless the hinge pin is in really bad shape), cost probably in the $2-250 range.

3. Replace the hinge pin. Cost here depends on whether the gun has a fixed or removable hinge pin, the latter being much easier than the former--and certainly if it's the former, it will be the most expensive. Winchester actually made up hinge pins in increments of increasing size for the Model 21, so all you needed to do was buy the next size larger.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

If the gun isn't a big dollar unit, a guy like Mike Orlan can solder a steel shim on the hook, which, is less invasive, and, if you are older than 25 years, will last most ,if not all, of the shooting years you have remaining. Its a low dollar deal (about $100) and while some people frown on it, they usually can't give a good reason why. There are some big dollar guns out there that have had the same fix, as well, but, those guns are usually considered an investment, and should be treated to the repair that helps them keep the most value.

But, a loose gun of any make isn't real valuable (for shooting, anyway).

Good Luck,
Best,
Ted

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Okay guys,
So how loose is too loose?
I have a 12 gauge Parker, that you can just barely feel movement. I cut a little piece of paper, about .001" thick. Placed it in the groove of the hook, put the barrel back on. And it's tight , no movement. To me this isn't loose enough to worry about. Your thoughts?

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

I've been involved in the printing industry for a long time, and a sheet of paper that mics out at .001 is tough to find-are you sure? The thinnest stock I could find about the house (service manual for a car, and you can just about read through it) measures .002, which, is 100% bigger. Common newsprint runs .004. Good quality writing paper about .005.
Anyway, you should likely double check that measurement. If, it turns out to be more like .004-.006, you are well on your way to a problem, as shooting the gun is just going to loosen it up faster, now that it has some play. In the last Double Gun Journal, there was a story about a guy who had a loose Nitro Special (this is a cheapie) that he just stuck a rectangle of .004 brass shim stock into the space between the hook and the pin, and shot for many seasons, including as a duck gun with duck loads. No solder, no machine work, and the gun was just fine when he sold it, letting the gent who bought it know of his repair. May still be in use today. One of the posters from New Zealand did the same thing with paper, many years ago, and is still shooting today as well.
I have a gun with the soldered shim method of repair, and it certainly seems durable, and was cheap. Let us know what you decide to do, and how it holds up.
Best,
Ted

To further explain what Ted correctly just said, once there is play between the fences on the block and the barrel breech, the barrels act in the same manner as an inertia hammer. They get a running start at the bearing surfaces. The bigger the space, the more force they develop and the worse the space gets. If the lock up is loose enough to wiggle a bit with the forend off the gun, its too loose. Get it fixed ASAP.

One more point. A decent gun grease, one that is heavy bodied enough to provide protection, acts not only as a lubricant, but as a buffer between the bearing surfaces as they are subjected to the mechanical forces of firing a hinge gun of any type. I use a decent, rust inhibiting trailor bearing grease on my guns. Pennzoil Green anti-rust bearing grease is a good one. Just use it sparingly, then clean and regrease the bearing surfaces often enough to remove any accumulated grit.

The bearing grease is cheap if you buy a tube, then store it in plastic film containers. One tube will last you a good many years.Its the cheapest insurance anainst premature wear I can think of.

I've been told scotch tape is .002 and is a good tool. Don't know if it's true.

Fin

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Mobile 1 Universal synthetic grease is a better choice as a hinge pin lube. It doesn't liquify or run (not below 450 degrees, anyway) and remains about the same consistancy down to minus 50 or so. A toothpick dab goes a long way on a hinge pin.

Trailer grease is obsolete. Even for trailers.
Best,
Ted

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Whew! Finally got the nerve to shake mine. Tighter than a bull's ass in fly season! Very Happy

Matt

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

Ted, I checked the paper with a dial caliper. You're right, it's .004" thick.
I think for now I'll just replace the piece of paper after every outing. Wink

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Scotch tape is a VERY temporary tightening fix. It deteriorates quickly as you open and close the gun.

Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 158 Location: NW Florida

[quote="Ted Schefelbein"]If the gun isn't a big dollar unit, a guy like Mike Orlan can solder a steel shim on the hook, which, is less invasive, and, if you are older than 25 years, will last most ,if not all, of the shooting years you have remaining. Its a low dollar deal (about $100) and while some people frown on it, they usually can't give a good reason why. There are some big dollar guns out there that have had the same fix, as well, but, those guns are usually considered an investment, and should be treated to the repair that helps them keep the most value.

But, a loose gun of any make isn't real valuable (for shooting, anyway).

Good Luck,

Ted, How can I get in touch with Mike Orlan? I have tried the thin paper shim and found that is works satisfactorily. I would like something more permanent. Thanks, Bob

Michael R. Orlen
79 Salem Street
Amherst, Ma. 01002
413-256-1630
michael.orlen@verizon.net

Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 158 Location: NW Florida

Thanks. I will get a note off to Mike today.