16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 59

I've been lurking and asking dumb questions for awhile now. I originally had it in my mind I wanted a 16ga. Citori but now after thinking about it and hanging around here I got to thinking. Since what I really wanted was a "shooter" maybe it would be fun to have a Classic SxS I would still like it to be a 16 ga. but it would'nt be a deal killer if it wasn't. The only problem is I know SQUAT about old doubles. I've done a little bit of searching on the net but haven't answered my questions. Just whats out there that is affordable and would make a good shooter. Is there a web page similar to this one about old doubles? Any help would be great I just don't want to be gator bait Very Happy

Scott

saw557

Here's a site with a lot of info on old doubles:

http://www.gunshop.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

Hc

Saw-it's awful easy to get hurt out there buying 'classic' SxS's. Find a friend who really knows the market and take him with you and don't buy anything sight unseen. You could get into a solid 'shooter' like a Lefever Nitro Special (by Ithaca) or a Western Arms Long Range (also by Ithaca) for $400-$700 at many gun shows BUT there is so much that could be wrong with a gun it's easy to make a $500 mistake. You should be able to find a Winchester M-24 with honest wear but mechanically solid for less than $1000. Esp. with 16s, it's critical to be sure it has a 2 and 3/4" chambers and not a 2 and 9/16"-not that you couldn't find 2 and 1/2" shells. And keep in mind, the inside usually looks WORSE than the outside so buy the best gun in the best shape that you can afford. SxSs have a completely different feel from pumps, autos, and O/Us and an older gun is likely to have more drop than you're used to so it will take some time (read lots of shells) to get comfortable with the gun. And you're probably going to do better if you pick one gun as your 'go to' bird gun. Take your time, enjoy the search (which is part of the fun), and good hunting. Let us know how things turn out.

And feel free to ask a lot of questions. This is a good friendly site so it's a great place to start; some of the others aren't quite as friendly, but there is a lot of good info on them, and most of them have some good folks that will give you straight answers. Be prepared to wade through some BS though, and that's kinda the tricky part: recognizing the difference Confused

. After you've read a few posts you'll begin to see the difference between the straight shooters and the one-upers Wink

! Good luck, and like Rev said, have fun!!

Fin

SAW 557-

If you are in the Mid West, consider visiting the Classic Shotgun Festival in Chicago May 17-21st. There will be many classic shotguns to view, handle, shoot, or purchase. Here is a link-

http://www.northbrooksportsclub.org/csf06/skeet.html

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

What I'd suggest is that you look at the "used but not really old" category. As mentioned above, you can get into trouble with the older guns if you don't know what you're doing. The Win 24 makes the cut as "modern"; on all the other American 16's (except the Stevens, and you want something better than those), there are issues with short chambers, bad stock dimensions, and just plain worn-out guns. Not that there aren't good ones, but you really have to know what you're looking for.

Foreign 16's to check out would be the older Berettas (they haven't made 16's for quite some time), Bernardellis, post-WWII Sauers (they'll be marked West Germany), used Merkels (which will be mainly OU's rather than sxs, other than the recent ones which may be more money than you want to spend), and about any Spanish 16--although the Spanish didn't make many 16's until fairly recently.

My first classic 16 was a pre-war Sauer, through which I shot all kinds of heavy pheasant loads. We both survived the experience, but I didn't learn the error of my ways until quite a bit later. Good luck!

Hal's got a great idea. The more guns you see and handle, the better decision you can make.
Was thinking about your thinking about getting a Citori. If you were willing to spend that kind of money, I'd definitely suggest moving up to a better SxS 'shooter'. We're talking honest wear with some dings in the stock (maybe refinished), case mostly faded, screws turned but not totally buggered, but great shape mechanically with the top lever well R of center. You could get a field grade LC Smith or NID Ithaca (not the older Flues model) for $1000-1200 and a Trojan or Sterlingworth for around $1500 BUT again you need help from somebody that knows classic American SxSs. And you'll want a gunsmith who knows SxSs to check and clean the insides for you (don't even think about trying to take apart a Parker unless you know what you're doing)
Forgive my babble but it's raining in Phoenix Laughing

and I have nothing else to do but bore you guys. One important qualifier-I've got 2 buddies who are the best natural wing shots I've ever hunted with (meaning instinctive quick see-the-bird-shoot-the-bird shooters) who can't miss BIRDS but when they bring their beloved SxSs to the skeet field can't hit anything because they slow down and start thinking. I believe that a SxS best suits a guys who's already a pretty good shot with his O/U, is an instinctive shooter, and probably alittle brain damaged (like me and 16GG Laughing

) so he can't think too much. My SxSs have more drop than my other guns which forces me to shoot with a more erect head position BUT doing this makes ME (maybe not you) a much better wing shot. One of those guys, an orthopedic surgeon with the best eye-hand coordination I've ever seen, lost confidence in his nice Bernardelli quail gun (with which I had witnessed him NOT MISS on S. Tx quail) that he ended up selling it. If you're serious about using your SxS as your bird gun, I'd suggest putting your other target guns away for 2-3 mths before bird season and shooting LOTS of low gun skeet or standing behind a 'wobble trap'..uh..trap?
Again-be patient and have fun!

Don't let Larry scare you away from a Stevens for a first SxS Smile

! The key is to find an older one; early 50's at least. The later 311's are pretty bad, but I've got 3 early ones and I've yet to see a Nitro Special or a Long Range that I'd trade for. The 12's are pretty clubby, but in the smaller gauges they're decent. I've killed a lot of birds and broken a lot of targets with mine over the years, and I've never been ashamed of them!

Agree with Fin (as usual) An Arkansas preacher buddy shoots at 16g. Stevens and does right well with it. And when the gun falls in the creek with the preacher, you don't much worry about it (wouldn't hurt the preacher to get baptized again anyway Wink

)

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

You may want to educate yourself before taking the plunge. There are dozens, if not hundreds of helpful books out there.
One I found to be very good is _Shotgun Technicana_ by McIntosh/Trevallion. It concentrates on English guns, particularly sidelocks, but I learned a lot about boxlocks, etc from it also.
McIntosh also had a book which I can't think of the name, it's out of print anyway, about classic shotguns. Might be worth trying to find it.

Good luck
Pete

What is wrong with a Flues model I have shot one for years and never had any problems.
You just have to keep in mind that you are using a old gun and buy the shell's that work with them. My 16 was in almost perfect condition when I found it at a gun show in kansas and outside of putting some finish on the stock it's still in great shape.
this gun has had the chambers set to 23/4 long before i got my hands on it and after a great smith in our town looked at it told me that it had a easy life and to keep the shell's around one oz. the gun will stay tight for a long time.
I dont think I would have gone after this gun unless I had a chance to to see it and look it over,having two Flues you can see a great difference in how they were taken care of
True the Flues has a pressure limmit on them but keep that in mind when you looking at them

Like 525 and Brad 6260, I'm a fan of Ithaca guns. This is alittle embarassing and please don't let my wife find this post Shocked

but I've had 5 SBTs (2 Flues and 3 Knicks), a Crass hammer gun, Lewis 12, Flues 10, 12 and 20 NIDs, 12 and 20 Nitro Specials (which made great bad weather falling-in-the-mud guns), 16 and .410 Western Arms (16 is long gone-what an idiot Mad

), 6 M-37s and a M-51 Trap gun. As 525 said, I wouldn't use modern pressure field loads in anything older than a NID.

KyBrad: like I said 'what an idiot' Confused

You couldn't go wrong with a nice NID 16 or 20! (and the other Brad from Ky must be a GOOD influence)
All of us have a potentially expensive learning curve esp re: classic American SxSs. In retrospect, I wish I had been more discernful and spent more money for a few really good guns than less money on a bunch of guns (that were still fun and from which I learned some important things)

Joined: 15 Dec 2005 Posts: 59

Well I've done some looking around on Guns America...just for a starting point. What makes the Win. Model 21 worth so much more than a Mod. 24? I've seen Fox Mod. B's for anywhere from $4-900. Whats the deal with the "flues" Ithicas ? I take them to be an older gun you can't shoot modern loads in? is tha why a N.I.D is more desirable? I think If I am relly going to take the plunge on a "classic" doulble it might just as well be a 16 ga. I am already set up to reload 16's if thats what I want to do. And so far everyone here has been more than helpful. If I really had to narrow it down to one or two guns what would be my best bet for not getting burned too bad.
Keep all the info coming!! Very Happy

Thanks
Scott