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< 16ga. Guns ~ English 16's - how to judge value, quality and price?? |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:04 am
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Member
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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Foursquare wrote: |
Being so close by, you probably know he accepts visitors by appointment, really it's just a call ahead to make sure he'll be there. One of my goals: to pay Thad a visit and try not to slobber too much!!
Pete
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Well if you are ever up this way going to either Thad Scott's or Steve Barnett's, you will likely have to pass through Jackson. If so, let me know and I will probably join you for the trip. I never pass up a chance to fondle wonderful guns, particularly with others who love and appreciate them as much as I do.
KB |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:18 am
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Member
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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Thanks, that sounds like an offer I can't refuse.
Pete |
_________________ " .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:35 am
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Member
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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budrichard wrote: |
Look at everything you can get your hands on and don't become impatient. when the right gun comes along, check EVERYTHING, chamber depth, constrictions and Proof Marks to verify the gun is unaltered. Have inspected by one of the people already mentioned and be prepared to pay a few $$. Your won't get a good Brit double cheap inspite of what you may be told.-Dick
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Excellent advice here Dick, I have found that rushing into buying something is usually where I get in the most trouble. When I take my time and am patient and check everything out then it usually pays off in the end and I don't mind spending a little upfront $ for peace of mind down the road.
I certainly don't think I will get a good Brit double "cheap", but I certainly think that given the mass movement of British guns to the US, there are opportunities to get some outstanding values relative to the quality of gun.
I think this is going to become a longer term project than I had thought, but thats the fun of it. The hunt and the research are every bit as fun as the getting and shooting.
KB |
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Posted:
Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:50 am
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Member
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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Brad,
Not sure what your budget is but this outfit seems to have a good rep on DGBBS.
www.vintageguns.co.uk
They are essentially a buyer's service, will find a gun that fits your specs and price range and then arrange the importation. I suspect it wouldn't be worth whatever they charge until you get into the $4-5K range.
Maybe something to keep in mind for after you've played with a few more mundane guns.
Pete (Disclaimer-I don't know them and have never used the service) |
_________________ " .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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Posted:
Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:49 am
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Member
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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Foursquare wrote: |
Brad,
Not sure what your budget is but this outfit seems to have a good rep on DGBBS.
www.vintageguns.co.uk
They are essentially a buyer's service, will find a gun that fits your specs and price range and then arrange the importation. I suspect it wouldn't be worth whatever they charge until you get into the $4-5K range.
Maybe something to keep in mind for after you've played with a few more mundane guns.
Pete (Disclaimer-I don't know them and have never used the service)
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Interesting site. I have read a bunch of Diggory Haddoke's stuff in the various magazines and particularly like his auction report that he does for the DGJ. I didn't know he had a companion buyers service, but it does make alot of sense.
Actually, they have a flat fee of 10% for buying the gun and a flat 50 pounds for the first gun and then 20 for every extra gun (damn where's the pound symbol when you need it?) for doing what they call a "condition report", meaning that they inspect the gun(s) and send you a detailed report in an email listing all of it's virtues and vices. Seems very reasonable to me and they indicate that they don't have a minimum value, i.e. they will do this for a $500 gun as well as a $50000 gun.
However, I suspect that where you run into problems is attempting to import the gun into the United States, i.e. that shipping and importation fees etc. are going to run about the same for your $500 gun as it will the $50000 Purdey.
Hmm... some interesting food for thought though. Heck, for that matter, I would love to go visit some old classmates in England, so I may go over myself sometime soon.
Anyway, take care and happy holidays to all.
KB |
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Posted:
Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:16 am
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Member
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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I believe he mentions a free gun fitting measurement when you use the service, provided you can get to his shop.
So while you're over there........
Pete |
_________________ " .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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Posted:
Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:57 pm
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 173
Location: S. E. Arizona
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I have been shooting Brit guns for a while, along with my American and German guns. I have had only two Brit 16s, which are pretty scarce. These are by Lang and Harkom. I also have a light 12 Dickson RA gun.
The advice to get a good SXS smith and keep him close is the best possible advice for a new (or experienced) buyer. Not all dealers know what there is to know about Brit guns.
The basic rule is, IF THE BARRELS ARE NOT GOOD, THE GUN IS JUNK. Bear this in mind as you drool over the engraving or beautiful wood.
Do not overlook a good A&D boxlock. While you will hear some people sneer at them, many are actually great guns. A good primer would be Doug Tate's book, "Birmingham Gunmakers". Doug did some exhaustive research to try to help guide people through the maze and to debunk much of the flak about these guns. I fact, there were - and are - best gun makers in Birmingham and other areas outside of London. Pape of Newcastle, Dickson, McNaughton, Martin and Harkom of Scotland, Tony White, AA Brown, and William Powell are examples.
Many much acclaimed 'London Guns' were actually made in Birmingham for London firms. Judge the gun by what you see - especially the mechanicals - have it vetted by an expert, and you will be happy with the gun. |
_________________ Country to hunt, my setters, and a Fox 16 gauge...
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:50 am
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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Good advice here, especially by Cman and Ted. Don Amos is the guy with the matrix. Like the Blue Book, it has to be taken as only a rough guide at best. Don is an engineer, and engineers have to be able to quantify absolutely everything or they're not satisfied. Well, there are WAY too many English makers, many of whom didn't make very many guns, to try to determine a value factoring in the maker's name, in addition to grade, condition, etc. Look at as many guns as possible on the various websites, look at as many as possible in person.
I would guess that a lot more Brit guns reach "out of proof" status after arriving in this country rather than before they leave England. Lengthening chambers (regularly done over here) without reproof automatically renders a gun out of proof--although that one is easy to spot, assuming you can read Brit proofmarks and measure chambers. And in some cases, being out of proof isn't really that big a deal as far as using the gun is concerned. The first Brit 16 I owned was an Ingram, originally imported by Doug Tate when he was involved with British Game Guns, but I bought it from Cabela's. Doug sent me the spec sheet on the gun, and it was out of proof because one bore was more than .010 oversize for a 16ga. That's automatically out of proof. However, it's not a real problem unless the gun's been honed out so much that the barrel walls are getting really thin, and that particular gun still had plenty of barrel wall thickness. In addition to Merrington, Hugh Lomas is another Brit smith in this country who will evaluate a gun for you, and do a good and honest job of it. He also imports Brit doubles, goes through them, and then markets them himself.
Something else to remember about Brit 16's is that they'll carry at least a 50% premium over the same gun in 12ga--pretty much like with the American classics over here. But they made even fewer smallbores, as a percentage of total production, than did Fox, Parker, etc. So be prepared to do some looking for the 16 you really want.
And one final suggestion: A 2 1/2" Brit 12 is essentially the equivalent of an American 16 in just about all respects (gun weight, shot charge, etc). They cost a lot less, are a lot easier to reload for, easier to find factory shells, etc. I know I'm preaching heresy on a 16ga board (Drew, see if you can protect me from the lightning bolts!), but it's the truth. I have a pair of Army & Navy 12's. They weigh 6 1/4 with 28" barrels, light enough to be grouse and woodcock guns, but with the capacity to push 1 1/8 oz loads at pheasants if I want to (although I usually use 1 1/16). Have been using them almost exclusively on pheasants this year. I've owned a few Brit 16's in the past, but I gotta say, for versatility, the Brit 12 is a better choice. Now if I were looking for a gun just for grouse and woodcock, quail, maybe prairie grouse, forget the pheasants, then a Brit (or short chambered European) 16 would be just the thing. |
Last edited by Larry Brown on Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:50 am
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Member
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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Chukarman wrote: |
Do not overlook a good A&D boxlock. While you will hear some people sneer at them, many are actually great guns. A good primer would be Doug Tate's book, "Birmingham Gunmakers".
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Found one on Amazon for $172. OUCH!!
ABE has 5 starting at $100, that works out to over 50 cents a page.
CM, is it worth that much?
Anybody have any other sources?
Pete |
_________________ " .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:35 am
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Member
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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Foursquare wrote: |
Chukarman wrote: |
Do not overlook a good A&D boxlock. While you will hear some people sneer at them, many are actually great guns. A good primer would be Doug Tate's book, "Birmingham Gunmakers".
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Found one on Amazon for $172. OUCH!!
ABE has 5 starting at $100, that works out to over 50 cents a page.
CM, is it worth that much?
Anybody have any other sources?
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Actually Pete, I do...
I just bought it via Countrysport Press who is having a holiday sale on this book for $30 (regularly $50).
Here is the link
https://secure.downeast.com/csp/index.php/cPath/97
Hope that helps.
KB |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:49 am
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Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 989
Location: Las Vegas
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Thanks for the link KB! Just ordered one for myself!
Matt |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:13 am
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Member
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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KB, you're a lifesaver. Thanks.
Pete
PS. Dittoes on everything Larry said about English 12s. I assumed you wanted a 16. |
_________________ " .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:52 am
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Member
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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Larry Brown wrote: |
And one final suggestion: A 2 1/2" Brit 12 is essentially the equivalent of an American 16 in just about all respects (gun weight, shot charge, etc). They cost a lot less, are a lot easier to reload for, easier to find factory shells, etc. I know I'm preaching heresy on a 16ga board (Drew, see if you can protect me from the lightning bolts!), but it's the truth. I have a pair of Army & Navy 12's. They weigh 6 1/4 with 28" barrels, light enough to be grouse and woodcock guns, but with the capacity to push 1 1/8 oz loads at pheasants if I want to (although I usually use 1 1/16). Have been using them almost exclusively on pheasants this year. I've owned a few Brit 16's in the past, but I gotta say, for versatility, the Brit 12 is a better choice.
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I thought I wanted a 16, but the more I research and look at guns, the more I am realizing the truth of Larry's statement. The Brit 12's are the equivalent of the American 16's. This is true for all of the areas that matter for hunting, i.e. gun weight, load, barrel lengths, upland suitability, etc.
I am coming to realize that if I want a great 16, I should look at the American classics and the pre-WWII/early post-WWII European guns, with a few of the modern American/European guns thrown in. If I want a great upland 12, I should look at the Brit 12's for many of the same handling characteristics that make the American classic 16's such great guns.
Great advice, thanks alot guys.
KB |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:02 am
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Member
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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Chukarman wrote: |
Do not overlook a good A&D boxlock. While you will hear some people sneer at them, many are actually great guns. A good primer would be Doug Tate's book, "Birmingham Gunmakers". Doug did some exhaustive research to try to help guide people through the maze and to debunk much of the flak about these guns. I fact, there were - and are - best gun makers in Birmingham and other areas outside of London. Pape of Newcastle, Dickson, McNaughton, Martin and Harkom of Scotland, Tony White, AA Brown, and William Powell are examples.
Many much acclaimed 'London Guns' were actually made in Birmingham for London firms. Judge the gun by what you see - especially the mechanicals - have it vetted by an expert, and you will be happy with the gun.
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Cman, great advice. I was actually leaning TOWARD a Birmingham or Scottish A&D boxlock for all of the reasons that you listed. The London "Best" guns seem to be overpriced, if beautiful guns, just not realistic for most shooters. This is particuarly true given that there were a bunch of great gunmakers in Birmingham and the "provinces" (and yes I can confirm that they STILL use that term in London and the SE of England... ).
You gave some outstanding makers there. I loved the RA Dickson I saw and handled in the KC Cabelas last winter. Just a gorgeous gun. Thanks for the advice and I will continue to look.
KB |
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Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:05 pm
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 173
Location: S. E. Arizona
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Here's the little Harkom 16...
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_________________ Country to hunt, my setters, and a Fox 16 gauge...
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