16ga.com ~ View topic - English 16's

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Thanks, that sounds like an offer I can't refuse.

Pete

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Brad,
Not sure what your budget is but this outfit seems to have a good rep on DGBBS.

www.vintageguns.co.uk

They are essentially a buyer's service, will find a gun that fits your specs and price range and then arrange the importation. I suspect it wouldn't be worth whatever they charge until you get into the $4-5K range.

Maybe something to keep in mind for after you've played with a few more mundane guns.

Pete (Disclaimer-I don't know them and have never used the service)

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

I believe he mentions a free gun fitting measurement when you use the service, provided you can get to his shop.

So while you're over there........

Pete

Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 173 Location: S. E. Arizona

I have been shooting Brit guns for a while, along with my American and German guns. I have had only two Brit 16s, which are pretty scarce. These are by Lang and Harkom. I also have a light 12 Dickson RA gun.

The advice to get a good SXS smith and keep him close is the best possible advice for a new (or experienced) buyer. Not all dealers know what there is to know about Brit guns.

The basic rule is, IF THE BARRELS ARE NOT GOOD, THE GUN IS JUNK. Bear this in mind as you drool over the engraving or beautiful wood.

Do not overlook a good A&D boxlock. While you will hear some people sneer at them, many are actually great guns. A good primer would be Doug Tate's book, "Birmingham Gunmakers". Doug did some exhaustive research to try to help guide people through the maze and to debunk much of the flak about these guns. I fact, there were - and are - best gun makers in Birmingham and other areas outside of London. Pape of Newcastle, Dickson, McNaughton, Martin and Harkom of Scotland, Tony White, AA Brown, and William Powell are examples.

Many much acclaimed 'London Guns' were actually made in Birmingham for London firms. Judge the gun by what you see - especially the mechanicals - have it vetted by an expert, and you will be happy with the gun.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Good advice here, especially by Cman and Ted. Don Amos is the guy with the matrix. Like the Blue Book, it has to be taken as only a rough guide at best. Don is an engineer, and engineers have to be able to quantify absolutely everything or they're not satisfied. Well, there are WAY too many English makers, many of whom didn't make very many guns, to try to determine a value factoring in the maker's name, in addition to grade, condition, etc. Look at as many guns as possible on the various websites, look at as many as possible in person.

I would guess that a lot more Brit guns reach "out of proof" status after arriving in this country rather than before they leave England. Lengthening chambers (regularly done over here) without reproof automatically renders a gun out of proof--although that one is easy to spot, assuming you can read Brit proofmarks and measure chambers. And in some cases, being out of proof isn't really that big a deal as far as using the gun is concerned. The first Brit 16 I owned was an Ingram, originally imported by Doug Tate when he was involved with British Game Guns, but I bought it from Cabela's. Doug sent me the spec sheet on the gun, and it was out of proof because one bore was more than .010 oversize for a 16ga. That's automatically out of proof. However, it's not a real problem unless the gun's been honed out so much that the barrel walls are getting really thin, and that particular gun still had plenty of barrel wall thickness. In addition to Merrington, Hugh Lomas is another Brit smith in this country who will evaluate a gun for you, and do a good and honest job of it. He also imports Brit doubles, goes through them, and then markets them himself.

Something else to remember about Brit 16's is that they'll carry at least a 50% premium over the same gun in 12ga--pretty much like with the American classics over here. But they made even fewer smallbores, as a percentage of total production, than did Fox, Parker, etc. So be prepared to do some looking for the 16 you really want.

And one final suggestion: A 2 1/2" Brit 12 is essentially the equivalent of an American 16 in just about all respects (gun weight, shot charge, etc). They cost a lot less, are a lot easier to reload for, easier to find factory shells, etc. I know I'm preaching heresy on a 16ga board (Drew, see if you can protect me from the lightning bolts!), but it's the truth. I have a pair of Army & Navy 12's. They weigh 6 1/4 with 28" barrels, light enough to be grouse and woodcock guns, but with the capacity to push 1 1/8 oz loads at pheasants if I want to (although I usually use 1 1/16). Have been using them almost exclusively on pheasants this year. I've owned a few Brit 16's in the past, but I gotta say, for versatility, the Brit 12 is a better choice. Now if I were looking for a gun just for grouse and woodcock, quail, maybe prairie grouse, forget the pheasants, then a Brit (or short chambered European) 16 would be just the thing.

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Thanks for the link KB! Just ordered one for myself!

Matt

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

KB, you're a lifesaver. Thanks.

Pete

PS. Dittoes on everything Larry said about English 12s. I assumed you wanted a 16.

Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 173 Location: S. E. Arizona

Here's the little Harkom 16...