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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:20 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Lancaster county, Pa

Went for a gun fitting Sunday. I found Glenn Baker to be very helpful. He is a retired PA state police officer.He bought a gun company in England named Charles Bland and sons.He was trained in england as a gun fitter and instructor. He is very blunt and straight foreward. If you have a thin skin and are offended easily stay home. If you want to listen and learn I think he can help you. He spent 6 hrs with me measuring my guns,teaching proper mount and physics involved in shooting before the auctual fitting. The fitting does no good until everything is properly done. The auctual fitting took place with my choice of 8 or 9 tryguns (a 16 sxs of course). We fired rounds at a patterning board until the gun fired were I was looking. The measurments were recorded.We then discussed fitting my guns.He was honest and told me I have very nice group of eclectic shit. All different dimensions.He said he could not even get my Fox close,the Merkel he could bend and the LC could come close. The Citori he said I shoot it well and if it ain't broke don't fix it. I would recommend his services to the group
he is knowlgable and helpful. His gunsmithing work is meticulous and near perfect( I guess if you work on English guns it has to be ). Just leave your ego and thin skin at home and I believe he can help you.
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TJC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:23 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks for the update and info.

_________________
A bad day of hunting is better than a good day of work.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:52 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks for sharing your experience. Gunsmithing, doctoring, and preaching are the same in that 'if you don't want to hear the truth, DON'T ASK' Anyway-which guns did you decide to get 'bent'? and let us know how everything turns out.
Now that you know the dimensions that you need, another option (as discussed by 16gg), that looks terrible on a classic SxS, is an adjustable comb. I had to do this on my very NON-collectible 12g. Trojan made in 26' because of all the drop. Couldn't be more pleased with the shooting results (which would be the point)
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:19 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Glendale, AZ

Hey pudelguy-one more idea. Obviously no two of us are alike, and certainly a big variable is how we mount our guns and how 'thick' our face is, but since your Citori was spot-on for you-it might help the 'average guy' Citori shooters among us to know your dimensions-ht, wt, chest, shirt size, how the Citori measured out, etc. (Please-no neck'd pics though!) Laughing
Anybody else out there know what dimensions they need and any gun that fits them out-of-the-box??
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:16 am  Reply with quote
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It didn't fit correctly but I've shot it so long and shoot it well, he told me to leave it alone. I am 5'8" tall 185 lbs wide shoulders and chest. I need 1/2 inch of cast off to center the rib with my right eye. Plus I plan on shooting the merkel for clays instead of the Citori. Its a liitle more critical with a sxs to be centerd on the sight plane. The thin sight plane on an over/under makes it easyer for most people to shoot even if it doesn't fit properly. I prefer a sxs but I think its more critical for it to fit properly. When it does you can become a good instintive shooter because a sxs brings your hands more in-line with the sight plane. Everybody is different but I hunt skiddish ruffed grouse in northern New York. Shots are quick with short windows. A sxs points more naturally and quicker for me. Pick an object,close your eyes,mount your gun,do not move your head. Now open your eys and see were your eye is in relation to the rib. If you have a buddy have him stand 3 feet in front of you.Open the gun show him its empty. Mount the gun again with your eyes closed.Have him look down the rib from the muzzle and see were your eye is centerd. If it is centerd, the gun probably fits pretty well. Now practice your mount till it is flawless.You should never have to move your head to center the rib. If you do it probably doesn't fit. Keep in mind proper and consistant gun mount will make the test more accurate.These are just my opinions not fact. Please excuse my grammar and spelling enlish class didn't intrest me.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:31 am  Reply with quote
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Revdoc, the Citori dimensions are right in the Browning catalog and on their web site too. Mine fit me perfectly at a 14-1/8 to 14-1/4" LOP.

I am 5'8" and a tad more in the AM. My shirt sleeve length is 32-33. I am somewhat broad shouldered but not overly so. I take a 40 coat size. Most medium large to large shirts fit me ok. I have a 16" neck size and it is of average length as well as mobility. My weight is classified, but some folks say I'm beginning to resemble a beer keg on stilts.

More importantly to gun fit, my facial structure is medium sized, of medium width and medium length with a minor high cheek shelf from my NA genes, but not as nearly pronunced as most full blooded plains people. Its more like a North Scandinavian's or Lapp's although I have no Nordic blood. At least, Mom never said so. My eyes are somewhat deeply set and of average spacing for my facial structure. My right eye is nearly dead center over the pocket of my cheek bone, which is why most combs of average width and radius fit my face very well. I wish I could tell you how high above my cheek my eye sits. This is also a critical measurement for gun fit. Lets just say that when I cheek the Citori properly about 3/4 to 1 inch behind the palm pad of my right thumb, my eye is looking dead center down the rib and I see a very minor sliver of it between my eye and the bead. Also, both my eyes are horizontally aligned to the vertical axis of the gun. In other words, My face is square to the gun barrel when the butt is dead center in my shoulder pocket and I'm well in the gun (behind the gun's forward line as opposed to off to the left which is wrong for a righty.) hope this helps you.

PS: PP, your advice on how to set up on a gun is dead on and a very solidly backed opinion. The bit of castoff on the Citori fits me very well. My weight and stature are a carbon copy of you except I'm probably not quite as broad through the shoulders so i don't need as much cast. I'm beginning to see a trend here as to why Citori guns fit so many folks so well but seem a tad short for most folks. I'll bet the lop is nearly perfect for you. I'll also bet the Remington 1100 and 870 field models fit you well too or at least you shoot them well.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:04 pm  Reply with quote
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The citori is a tad long, I need just under 14. Its much better to be a little short than a little long. Summer shooting in t-shirts is different than fall and winter shooting with a hunting jacket. When you bring the gun to your cheek,then to your shoulder pocket it should be smooth and fluid motion. If a gun is to long it will catch your cloths or arm pit. If its a bit short it will still come to your cheek smoothly and back into your shoulder pocket. A little short won't ruin your hunt a little long can. And I did say gun to cheek not cheek to gun. One of my many faults that were pointed out. I used to mount the gun to my shoulder and lay my cheek on the gun. Very quickly and subconsciously with out knowing. Another syptom of improper fit. Glenn taught me things you don't think about. Straight still head,stock to cheek then back to shoulder pocket. We all practice our mount with emphisis on comfort and speed instead of proper mechanics. Anyway I will quit rambling and end with this. The simple little details are the difference between a 23 verse a 25 on the skeet feild or a 40 verse 45 on the sporting clays course.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:41 pm  Reply with quote
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Amen to all you say. I'd say you got your money's worth. The good thing is now you know. You can practice gun mount at home in the den. I must be a bit lankier than you even though we are the same height. 14-1/4 works for me on a hunting gun. However, I don't bulk up as much for warmth anymore since the hi tech stuff hit the market about 10 years ago. I now use the thinnest stuff I can get away with. If its any colder than what clothes I own can protect me from, I don't go.

I also tend to "drape myself" along the stock. I tend to lean into and slightly over the gun as it comes up to my face and shoulder. Some folks who claim to know say its a good form, others say it isn't. I notice the short heavy set guys say no and the lanky ones say yes. I guess its based on what has worked for them or the folks who tought them. I was told by an "Expert" that iId always have problems with high over head targets. I regularely clobber station 8 L and R house targets and springing teals so it goes to show you. Its a wide world and takes all kinds.

Anyway, thanks a bunch for sharing the lesson. There are a bunch of us who need all the help we can get and all the encouragement to have our guns checked for fit. It is always the place to start. Unfortunately, its usually one of the last things we learn. "If youth knew, if age could" 16GG
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:15 pm  Reply with quote
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Although gun fit is important, I don't think an exact fit is as important for many people as some gunfitters would have them believe. Using myself as an example, and speaking basically of sxs with DT, I can shoot guns with no cast or a little (at least 1/4"), and a variation of up to 1/4" in LOP doesn't bother me either, as long as the stock's not longer than 14 1/2. Likewise, slight variations in drop don't bother me much either. I shoot all my guns at skeet, low gun, and if minor dimension changes bothered me a whole bunch, I'd be able to notice it in my scores. I don't.

The other thing you have to remember is that the correct dimensions will vary between different types of guns. For example, the same LOP with a single trigger gun as a DT gun will almost certainly give you a stock that's too long. And some people may do better with more (or less) drop when going from a sxs to an OU. Then there's the issue of LOP changing depending on what you're wearing--cold weather shooting vs warm, for example.

Sounds like Glenn did a good job for you. He has a pretty solid reputation, although most people who follow the used British gun market will tell you that his prices are on the upper end.

Guy, skeet 8's are certainly overhead targets, but they're not HIGH overhead targets. In fact, on a driven shoot, 8's are so low that they'd likely be regarded as "unsporting" and the other guns would give you the evil eye if you bothered shooting at them.
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CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Pudel: Thanks for the update! I am also 5'8" and 183 lbs. I wear a size 42 sportcoat and my Citori's also seem to fit me well.

Did Mr. Baker tell you if one of the measurements were more important than another? LOP, DAC or DAH? Also, could he not fit the Fox because the dimensions were too far apart? Is there a point where you can only alter the dimension so far? That would seem logical. I assume you can just trim a little LOP off the Citori.

My big problem is I shoot righty and am left eye dominant so cast is pretty meaningless although my right eye does line up right nown the rib.

Matt
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:30 pm  Reply with quote
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Well sir, I have never been to a driven shoot. Heck I can't remember the last time I was driven to a shoot. Rolling Eyes Laughing However, I was referring to angle and not distance. Sorry if I confuddled you.

Each of us is built differently. Facial structure has as much to do with gun fit as any of it including body type, size etc. We also shoot differently. That is why I consistantly advocate shooting your own guns to varify POI. Then you know for certain.

Getting started right is important too. However, if you've been doing something a certain way for many years and can do it fairly well, then all of the corrected form in the world will probably just mess you up. Again, shooting the new or unfamiliar gun for POI will varify if it will do it for you, regardless how you do it.

Matt, I take it you close the left eye. so you must shoot with the right one. In this case, squarely down the rib is the "right way" no pun intended--oh heck, sure it was. HEE HEEE! Laughing
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:19 am  Reply with quote
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Shooting for POI with a shotgun is a somewhat more complicated undertaking than with a rifle, for the simple reason that we don't aim (or aren't supposed to aim) a shotgun. It's supposed to be "there" when you mount it, with your shooting eye acting as the rear sight.

If you do the normal POI/patterning thing (in which the usual advice is "don't aim the gun, just mount and shoot as you would at a bird or a target) and it hits where it's supposed to, all well and good. However, if it does not shoot where you look, there are two potential problems, and you have to eliminate them one at a time.

The first possibility is that there's something wrong with the gun itself. In order to resolve that issue, you MUST aim the gun. If it shoots to POI when you consciously aim the gun, like you would a rifle, that eliminates potential problem #1.

Potential problem #2 is gun fit. If the gun shoots to POI when you aim it but it does not do so when you mount and fire normally, then you've got a problem of fit, and need to adjust the stock accordingly.

Problem #2 is not all that hard to solve. #1, on the other hand, is a barrel regulation problem, and the best advice may be to get rid of the gun.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:01 am  Reply with quote
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Feather the Sterlingworth is a restored 1915 vintage it is cast on instead of cast off. The drop at heel is 3".He said he just couldn't bend a stock that far and have it hold. He told me to sell it and buy one that fits.I don't think I can do that I knew the old fella that owned it. I had it restored to factory new and it is gorgeous. I'll just but another one when the opportunity arises. Glenn called me this morning to give me an update on the 2 guns. The grouse carving is removed from the Merkel stock along with the sling swivels. The lenth of pull and pitch have been completed,its ready to bend. The Smith pitch and lenth of pull are complete and it is ready to bend. One day after I left I"m impressed. I forgot to mention he honed out the choke on the left barrel to light mod.As I mentioned before he is straight foreward and tells you what he thinks I prefer the no nonsense approach.Most gun work I have had done in the past with my small town gunsmiths has taken months to years to complete. I agree with Larry about exact fit not being the most important thing. Glenn told me mechanics and consistant mount are much more important. But a properly fit gun is like casting a fly with a top of the line rod verses a $10 special. If the gun glides to your cheek and should,and your head is lined up without effort the experience of shooting is much more enjoyable.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:23 am  Reply with quote
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Relying on one shot at the target/pattern sheet won't do it either. Stan Baker recommended at least 6 shots and more is better. This is for each barrel on its own target sheet. He also advised against resting the gun on any surface, padded or not for POI checks. Barrel harmonics and recoil affect gun differently than when mounted and shot from the shooter's usual stance. In short, the gun will probably shoot to a different and irrelevent POI when rested

By checking each barrel separately for POI, you can easily tell if both barrels are hitting sufficiently close enough to each other, regardless of how far off(within reason) the patterns are to what the shooter was pointing at. Just compare the aggregate center of the pattern for each barrel in relation to the aiming dot. Both barrels should be very close to hitting the same spot on the target.

Stan's criteria for properly regulated field gun barrels was that both should shoot within 2 to 2-1/2" of each other in any direction at 30 yards. He preferred that the displacement of pattern centers show no evidence of crossfiring. He said that O/U barrels should put the patterns on a vertical plane with the bottom barrel hitting slightly under the top barrel. He also preferred that the pattern for SxS doubles be displaced horizontally with the right barrel hitting slightly to the right and the left on the left. However, for field guns, He felt that if both hit within the same 2-1/2 inch circle at 30 yards even if the evidence showed they were crossfiring, that was good enough. He was more demanding of target guns and would not accept barrels that crossfired inside 30 yards as sufficiently well regulated.


If both barrels hit close enough to each other, but are a foot or more off from the intended target, then the gun probably can only be corrected by fitting a new and properly dimensioned stock or by having it fitted with an adjustable cheek piece and butt plate. Sometimes its better to just sell the gun if you can recoupe at least most of your investment. However, if you have a double gun that you've acquired reasonably with very well regulated barrels, then selling them off can be a costly mistake too. I'd advise having a custom stock fitted to the gun so it is both comfortable to shoot and hits exactly where you look. Then never, ever sell it. You will be giving up a personal treasure you may never find again. Double guns that shoot comfortably and hit exactly where you look with both barrels are rare and very hard to come by for most folks.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:03 am  Reply with quote
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The unavoidable variable here, unfortunately, is that all of us change as we grow...uh...'seasoned' Wink We WILL lose some muscle mass, lose some subcutaneous fat from our face, and gain fat either in our gut or central body ('apple' body habitus which is mostly genetically determined and with the greatest risk for the 'metabolic syndrome': diabetes, hypertension, high trigylcerides, and low HDL (good) cholesterol AND obtructive sleep apnea) Anyway-it's easy to adjust LOP for early season t-shirt hunting vs. late season down vest and 3 layers of fleece by starting with a slightly shorter LOP and adding a slip-on pad early season. We CAN choose to continue to exercise, lift weights, and not get fat but CAN'T do anything about the changes in our face (short of silicone and collagen injections-you paying attention 16GG? Laughing DON'T send pics!) Just look at some pictures of you from 20, 15, 10, and 5 years ago. Here's where an adjustable comb has a great advantage-but I'd never butcher a collectible classic SxS with one (but I did with my non-collectable Trojan 'shooter'). IF I was going to make a custom stock-I'd keep the original stock untouched and make the custom with an adjustable comb. Any 'amens' out there from some of the more 'mature' shooters?
BTW: Will the SxS shoots let a competitor use a gun with an adjustable comb?
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