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Foursquare
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:17 pm  Reply with quote
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Browsing the Remington site, I noticed their new Premier O/U which they proudly state is made in Italy to their specs. It bears an uncanny resemblance to the FAIR LX400 I have right here next to me. It's available in 3 models, in 12, 20 and 28. Prices range from $1800-2200.
BUT, regardless who makes them, Remington had a chance to buy an off the shelf item, with gage scaled frames, which is already made in 16 ga and chose not to.
Once again we get the one finger salute from the management of Rem.

Pete Mad
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Brian Meckler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:09 pm  Reply with quote



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Remington's new O/U is not a FAIR or a Rizzini. The gun is made by Sabatti. Sabatti does not list a 16 gauge O/U version on their web site. Sabatti does however make a 16 guage SxS.
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hoashooter
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:34 pm  Reply with quote
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Is it on a 12 o 16 frame Question
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:16 am  Reply with quote
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Sooner or later, you folks will come to the same conclusion that I did years ago; Remington wants the 16 ga dead. It competes too much with the, upland 12 ga market, the 20ga. market, and if the truth be known, the 28 as well. Combine the small but steady 28 ga. market with the very popular 20 ga market, and the 12 ga. upland market and you get the picture.

Remington picked up on Olin's marketing strategy years ago. Olin decided to kill off the 16 by not offering it in guns built of a suitable weight. Remington fell into lock step. Once the majority of the older 16 ga. classis doubles were reaching the end of their reasonable service life inthe late 1970's through the 80's, both companies started withdrawing from the ammo and loading componant market.

Enter Browning in 1987 with a pair of cataloged 16 ga. guns in suitable weights. This move threw a monkey wrench into the predominent corporate thinking, because the guns remained quietly popular until the late 1990's. Now, the ga is making a big comeback. Browning has found a nice niche in the market by quietly making several thousand every few years for the big distributers. you can thank them for saving the gauge. The ripple effect has set the whole industry buzzing, and the used 16 double market has gone bonkers.

Olin had given up on the 16 thinking they'd put the stake through its heart. Wrong! They have been caught flat footed and are back peddling for all they are worth. Remington leadership is too stupid to see the forest for the trees. They don't know wheather to crap, go blind, or draw from small stores. But don't count on them getting a clue any time soon. Dinosaurs are slow to learn and slow to turn. But they take a lot of killing and a long time to die. Both of the big two have had issues with Browning for decades. It doees my heart good to see them both falling flat on their big fat asses over this one. Laughing Browning was right and these two moronic entities were wrong. Don't you just love it! 16GG
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:09 am  Reply with quote
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Actually, Winchester made their Model 24 sxs in 16ga up through the late 50's, by which time most other American sxs (let alone 16ga sxs) were long dead. Also the Model 21, if you wanted to pay big bucks.

Browning . . . yes, they deserve credit for the Citori 16, but why is it those geniuses never made the Superposed in 16? They were making A5 16's, yet they neglected the gauge in their OU.

But let's face it, guys: There's only a limited market for the 16. Remember, the current crop of 16ga Citoris are not a standard Browning catalog item. After their initial run back in the 80's, they dropped the 16 like a hot potato, and didn't make any more until a bunch of large volume dealers pooled their resources and said "we'll take this many, if you'll make them for us". No risk at all for Browning--that's a no-brainer. And sure, smaller outfits like FAIR have taken a shot at the 16. But for a big company like Remington or Winchester (or, I guess we should say "former Winchester" now) to jump into the 16ga business, especially with something like an OU built on a scaled frame, there's got to be pretty significant market share out there. Look at Ruger, which has sold tons of Red Labels in 12, 20, 28 . . . never made a 16. Browning isn't exactly on the cutting edge of the risk-taking business. They don't even made a moderately priced sxs any more, even though their BSS Sporters, especially in 20ga, sell like crazy on the used market. Ruger has at least given the sxs a shot with the GL, as has Galazan with the RBL. What's to stop Browning from going to Miroku and producing a sxs in the $2500-3000 range? I can't believe Miroku couldn't do it, and if they offered it in 16, where's their competition? With the AyA 453 pushing $3,000, looks to me like there's a market there. Make it on a 20ga frame (as Merkel has done) to cut costs some.

As much as anything else, the 3" 20--until people figured out that wasn't such a good combination--plus a desire to cut manufacturing costs, which escalated a bunch after WWII, was what hurt the 16. The latter is also what killed American doubles. And it's only a fairly small group of kooks like us that are keeping the 16 alive.
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:40 am  Reply with quote
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Larry,

Small group? Probably true, but it's getting bigger; the 16 is "cool" again. Used to be that gun shops and gun shows had 16's around forever; and prices reflected that. Now they fly out the door, and at rediculous prices (a Sterlingworth at almost 4 grand was mentioned on this bb recently!).

Every dealer with a 16 now thinks they've got a "classic" and is pricing it accordingly. Guns like the 1100 that aren't true 16's are out there trying to cash in. Check out the shotgun discussion boards and note how many threads are about 16's.

Perhaps it will result in more factory loads, etc., which will be good for us. But personally I kinda wish all these folks that have "found" the gauge woulda just left us alone ('course, I wish we all still traveled by train, so what does that tell you?)!

Sincerely,

The 16 gauge Curmudgeon (Fin)

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I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook
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clayflingythingy
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:46 am  Reply with quote



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I have a background in manufacturing (automotive) and small order items are one heck of a pain to any manufacturing shop. I have never been to the Remington or Winchester factories but I can take a pretty good guess that they don't like to change over their production line any more than necessary. Changeovers are a big pain (even for Japanese companies that supposedly perfected the quick changeover!).

Remington did make a mistake in bringing back the 16 on the 12 frames. I suspect the engineering necessary to make a 16 on its own frame or, better yet, use the 20 frame was too expensive.

As I see it a 16 on its own frame is too heavy for the market at this moment. The Citoris go something like 6 3/4 pounds. Well, my Ruger GL weighs right about its catalog weight of 6 1/2 pounds and now Benelli has its Ultralight auto at 6 pounds. Browning has slimmed down their Gold auto to about 6 1/2 pounds as well. Most hunters are going to take the light 12 over a heavier 16!

At one time I thought Ruger would be the American company to bring back the 16 on its Red label line. Ruger apparently thinks the 16 is as dead as the dodo bird. If the 16 survives it will be because the smaller shops such as CSMC play to the niche market. Let's hope for the 16 RBL!
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:08 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, I agree in some respects and disagree in others. So what else is new? Laughing I give credit to Browning for having the nuggets to actually do it, even though they did get creamed financially at first. the A5 16 was no brainer. The 16 Ga. citori was an afterthought, gleaned from an existing Miroku gun cobbled up for the European market on a slightly modified 20 ga frame. For Browning, it was pure happy coincidence. They did not even have the brains to capitalize on the lighter weight/ heavier punch issue the Citori offered even over the A5. They were betting more on the auto. The Citori turned out to be the more popular of the two for good reason. They should have seen that one coming. I don't view them as heros. But I am grateful. Besides, I think you know I love the 16 ga Citori. No! well then, let me tell you why.....just kidding!!! Wink

With the two nitwit twins, Olin and Remington, they need not even enter the gun market to be winners. The Ammo market is the far more lucritive one. Most folks buy one or two guns and bunches of ammo. These two could really do themselves and the 16 ga shooter a service by improving their ammo line, improving the shell they use in that line, and remarketing componants. That they don't is just plain stubborn and stupid. I think most folks would agree about this issue.

They need to follow Browning's lead here. Browning is doing well be being flexible. Remington has shown some willingness to flex--a little. They do still make the SP-16 wad available and also did bend and let us order the R16 prepaid in bulk. That was smart business.

Olin just won't budge. Fine. I've given up on them. Other companies have been eating their lunch for years in the shotgun ammo business and not in just the 16 ga market but right across the board. I think it was based on a political decision about the lead issue. They misread it, thinking lead shot would be dead as a dodo by now. They were wrong. They sided with the liberals and extremists and now the tide has turned. Perhaps they should finally sell off their shotgun ammo line to some folks with the knowledge and insight to make a go of it and be done with it. They appear to be like a big stupid gorilla sized monkey with their hand caught in the shotgun ammo cookie jar. They want it both ways. Sorry Elmo! Ain't gonna be that way. Wink Laughing 16GG
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:29 am  Reply with quote
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Hey Larry- KOOKS?!? Who you calling kooks? (I thought 16GG said he was a gnome Laughing, or was that a geek?)
Still think we oughta be the 16 GOODS- 16G Oppositional Defiance Disorder Society. (Oh my- the Diety is warming up his lightning bolt again Shocked)
Unfortunately, as Fin said, the rest of the shooting world is catching on (and as painful as it is to admit Confused , something hunters on the Continent have known for yrs.)
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:19 am  Reply with quote
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Hey Revdoc. I leave off for one day and look at you..up to your neck in no good again!!! Know, first, please be aware that gnomes consider geeks fine dining. We particularly like them stewed in their own juices and served up in a nice humble pie! Laughing

Second, it doen't take a genious to recognize the benifits of a nice 16. Otherwise, we both never would have gotten on this train. Now quit trying to jump from car to car while its rolling. you might drop your Whirlingstirth. On second thought, it might help the old gun shoot straighter Laughing

Third, you have your own issues with disorders and so do I. Please don't be putting the soiled laundry out to dry in public before its washed. Forming a society will not help. (I know. I already tried it. Just ended up with a bunch of friends screwier than me. come to think of it, something about this site feels familiar. Hummmm???)

And Larry...watch who you are calling a kook! I'm a screwball. There is a huge difference. SHEESH. Give a guy a column, teach him to type, and look out below!!! The guy starts dropping innuendos around faster than a pack of bird dogs can pass used puppy chow.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:35 am  Reply with quote
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OK 16gg-we don't need to be insulted. Looked up 'kook' in a French-English dictionary and it means 'exceptionally knowledgeable'. I think he learned that one after a night with the KGB blond Wink
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XVIgauge
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:47 am  Reply with quote
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Hey Guys,
Dwell on this and tell me what I am missing. I find it very peculiar that there are literally hundreds of different rifle cartridges out there but only a handful of shotgun choices. New rifle cartridges are introduced every year. If some basement reloader comes up w/ an efficient rifle wildcat, in no time it is on the shelf as a legitmate round. And then, one of the big boys like Remington or Winchester will revive an older round that has gone by the wayside and call it a "classic" and add it to their lines. I have been into centerfire rifles for years and in fact I currently don't own any, but is the rifle market that large? I guess it must be easier to tool up for a new rifle and cartridge than a shotgun gauge.
XVI

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Alfred Hitchcock
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:38 am  Reply with quote
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Actually, the rifle market is huge. It easily surpasses the shotgun market. There are several reasons for this. first, we have been brought up to think of ourselves as a nation of riflemen. the myth persists that it was the superior shooting of the American Militia that won the American Revolution over the British smoothbores. Nothing is further from the truth. but it doesn't matter. We are Americans and we are riflemen. Period.

Most big game hunting in the states is done with rifles. That is the most prestigious type of hunting. Kill a bunch of quail and its fine! so what! you obviously used a shothgun. Who couldn't? Bring down a deer with a nicely placed accurate shot, and its atta boy. you're a born killer, a true son of America taking home the venison. Wow!

Only small game, waterfowl, and birds are hunted with smooth bores. If the truth were known, the smooth bore gets used much more than the rifle and always has. the average pioneer family would have starved out their first year untill the land was cleared if they had depended on a rifle to eat. It was the smoothbore and trapping that fed them. But again, the myth persists here too. More folks are willing to drop big bucks on a rifle faster than a shotgun. I see far more custom rifles than custom shotguns. the truth is that it is far easier to shoot a rifle that doesn't quite fit well a lot easier than hitting with a shotgun that doesn't fit. However, few Americans will recognize this simple truth.

Reloading for rifles is far and away more popular than reloading for shotguns and far more lucrative for the ammo componant industry. Most folks who reload for shotguns are target shooters who reload for volume and to save money. They aren't looking for a top load. they are looking for cheap praxctice ammo. Most registered clay target shooters buy their ammo for big shoots. Rifle shooters will spend the extra dough to squeeze that little extra bit of accuracy, range, and power out of their rifles. Dedicated rifle ammo reloaders will spend inordinate amounts of time, effort, and cash looking for the magic MOA or better load. Its all about accuracy. Just check out hte price of a 100 count box of bullets today.

Rifles are a lot more challanging and fun to reload for too. The results are immediate and either gratifying or a challange to try again. Its all right there on the paper. Its either a small satisfying little group smack in the middle or it isn't. There are many variables to getting that little group. On the other hand, a shotgun ammo reloader puts a load together. It shoots and the clay breaks, or the bird falls or it doesn't. The load functions in the gun or it doesn't. We try a few loads, then settle o a small handful for life. They work, they are dependable. good enough.

The rifle will probably be king in America for a long time to come. I'm a shotgunner. To me clay target shooting is a lot more fun. Its kinetic, fast paced, and sociable for the most part. Rifles a boring. but that is just me. I know I'm in the minority. 16GG.
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:06 pm  Reply with quote
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'KINETIC'? Ain't that another French word for 'circumabulating cluelessly'? (Sounds like my setters Confused)
Where'd 16GG learn all these big words? Laughing (At least Bro. Larry got 'hands on instructions' in Morocco)
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woodcock
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:13 pm  Reply with quote
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I made this comment earlier this week on another thread, but at the risk of redundancy I'll re-state in the hope that some comment might be generated.
The issue of 16 gauge guns on dedicated frames appears to me to be extremely unlikely BUT is it not possible to convince some domestic (or foreign) manufacturer to produce a 16 gauge gun on an existing 20 gauge frame?
This is not a new idea and would acess the 16 gauge 'niche' without the expense of manufacturing a new frame size.

Think "O" frame Parker 16 or perhaps even Marlin's mod. 90 16ga O/U.

Or should I just shut-up?
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