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XVIgauge
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Did any of you read the article by Tom Roster in his Shot Talk column? It is on page 36 of the current issue. He does nothing to promote the 16 and he does some to discourage its use. He says, "Currently, the 3" 20 shell also is available with more shot types, shot sizes, and load weights than the 2 3/4" 16."
Who in the hell wants to be pounded by a light 3" 20 anyway?
He also says, "...reloading is an absolute necessity for any 16 gauge shooter."
Well dah! No kidding and so what?
He says several more things and even contadicts himself about load weights a little later on, but I should quit writing about it now because I am really getting pissed off.
We just don't need negatives written about our favorite gauge. He doesn't say the it is just his opinion but he says that it is his "definitive position," as if what he says is pure fact.
Let's all write letters to the editor and demand that Mr. Roster print some kind of retraction.
XVI

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mdoerner
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:57 pm  Reply with quote
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Haven't seen the article, but much of what Mr. Roster says (in my opinion) is true. There probably are more 20 Ga loadings than 16 Ga loading commercially available currently.

Sorry you don't think 16 Gauge is not gaining market share, but who else has introduced a 16 Ga gun other than the Turkish/Russian Autos, O/U's, and SxS's? The Winchester 1300 is gone, who knows how much time the Mossberg 500 and Rem 870 have left in the market. The re-hashing of Remington's 16 Gauge lineup hasn't thrilled me enough to go buy a new one. I'll stick with my 16 Ga Savage 720 and Ithaca Flues (and hopefully this summer a NEW Ithaca 37 in 16 GA since they're making them in my home state now) and reload to my hearts content. If the plastic shells are discontinued I'll go to Magtech Brass. If plastic wads are discontinued I'll continue to roll my own cup wads and use fiber wads (which are more ECO friendly anyways.)

Actually, I really don't care what anyone thinks about 16 Gauge. If you're in the 16 Gauge game to make it popular, then you're gonna be frustrated now and in the future.

Regards,

Mike Doerner
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XVIgauge
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:22 pm  Reply with quote
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mdoerner wrote:
Haven't seen the article, but much of what Mr. Roster says (in my opinion) is true. There probably are more 20 Ga loadings than 16 Ga loading commercially available currently.

Sorry you don't think 16 Gauge is not gaining market share, but who else has introduced a 16 Ga gun other than the Turkish/Russian Autos, O/U's, and SxS's? The Winchester 1300 is gone, who knows how much time the Mossberg 500 and Rem 870 have left in the market. The re-hashing of Remington's 16 Gauge lineup hasn't thrilled me enough to go buy a new one. I'll stick with my 16 Ga Savage 720 and Ithaca Flues (and hopefully this summer a NEW Ithaca 37 in 16 GA since they're making them in my home state now) and reload to my hearts content. If the plastic shells are discontinued I'll go to Magtech Brass. If plastic wads are discontinued I'll continue to roll my own cup wads and use fiber wads (which are more ECO friendly anyways.)

Actually, I really don't care what anyone thinks about 16 Gauge. If you're in the 16 Gauge game to make it popular, then you're gonna be frustrated now and in the future.

Regards,

Mike Doerner




Mike,
Your statement that begins "Sorry..." contains a double negative that reads that your are sorry that I think the 16 IS gaining in popularity, or its "market share." If so, that is what I really do believe,i.e., that the 16 gauge is gaining in popularity. If you mean that you are sorry that I think that the 16 is not gaining its market share, then look back at what I said. I never said that the 16 is losing any ground at all. In fact, I implied just the opposite. Like you, I will always be able to reload and shoot my 16's, but, I just don't like it when a well known guy writer tries to sound the death nell for it long before its time. I also believe that Tom Roster is a good and knowledgeable writer, but he blew it this time. Singing the praises of the 3" 20 and playing taps for the 16 in practically the same sentence is malpractice.
Many of us on this board are trying to get gun and ammo manufacturers to come out with more loads and reloading components, and more 16's on true 16 frames. Tom Roster can help to defeat all of this good effort in one stroke of the pen. I'm sure the articles written by famous gun guru's carry more weight (though they shouldn't) than the everyday consumer as far as the manufacturers are concerned.
XVI

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hoashooter
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:46 pm  Reply with quote
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Bottom line is----beat up on the 16 any way possible from manufactures to owners.The press would like to see the 16 go the way of the Edsel.WE MUST STAND TOGETHER OR WE WILL SURELY HANG SEPARAETELY!!!!!!
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Rem16
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:26 pm  Reply with quote



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What magazine was this in?

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mdoerner
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:16 pm  Reply with quote
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XVIgauge wrote:

Mike,
Your statement that begins "Sorry..." contains a double negative that reads that your are sorry that I think the 16 IS gaining in popularity, or its "market share." If so, that is what I really do believe,i.e., that the 16 gauge is gaining in popularity. If you mean that you are sorry that I think that the 16 is not gaining its market share, then look back at what I said. I never said that the 16 is losing any ground at all. In fact, I implied just the opposite. Like you, I will always be able to reload and shoot my 16's, but, I just don't like it when a well known guy writer tries to sound the death nell for it long before its time. I also believe that Tom Roster is a good and knowledgeable writer, but he blew it this time. Singing the praises of the 3" 20 and playing taps for the 16 in practically the same sentence is malpractice.
Many of us on this board are trying to get gun and ammo manufacturers to come out with more loads and reloading components, and more 16's on true 16 frames. Tom Roster can help to defeat all of this good effort in one stroke of the pen. I'm sure the articles written by famous gun guru's carry more weight (though they shouldn't) than the everyday consumer as far as the manufacturers are concerned.
XVI


Sorry 'bout the double negative. The 16 Gauge is not gaining market share. 12 Gauge 3.5" guns are. It's not that I (and obviously everyone on this board) don't like the 16 gauge. I've had the 12 Ga 3.5" Rem 870 and got rid of it because I thought it was a hokey design and too heavy. Unfortunately, everyone else considers the 3.5" 12 Ga the "swiss army knife" of the shotgun world, especially in autoloaders (i.e. the SBE 2). Gun manufacturers don't care what they make, so long as it makes them money. 16 Gauge is a nitche market and therefore doesn't need the resources or marketing dollars in a market where less hunters are renwing licenses each year. A waterfowler COULD take his SBE2 upland hunting (although would be quite exhausted by the end of the day), but would consider himself undergunned (wrongly so I might add) with a 16 Ga when going after duck.

If the 16 gauge were gaining market share, why did Winchester get rid of their compression formed 16 Ga hulls and wads? (I know it was also the 12 Ga that was re-designed, but again, if things are gaining in market share, why were they so keen to eliminate cost if that was really happening?) Why are they (Winchester) offshoring their 16 Ga shells manufacture when they have plants in the USA that need to keep their production capacity at maximum? Why aren't Remington and Federal creating new loads for the 16 Ga? If demand were as high as you are saying it is, why aren't all the 16 Ga shells gone at the local Gander Mountain, Dick's Sporting Goods, or even Wal-Mart (oh, wait, Wal-Mart's don't carry 16's, dang).

If Tom Roster gave the impression the 16 is dead, that's incorrect. If someone is being intorduced to reloading or even shooting a shotgun for the 1st time, I would not recommend a 16 Gauge to them unless they had a specific desire to use that gauge explicitly (same goes for 10 gauge as well.) The 16 ain't dead, but it certainly is not breeding like rabbits either.......

Regards,

Mike Doerner
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MGF
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:01 am  Reply with quote
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Well, I'll disagree with the man and might write to rebut his position, but I won't write to demand a retraction. It's his column, and columnists are entitled to their opinions. To demand someone write a retraction simply because I disagree strikes me as wrong.

But, that said, I think anyone who can't see the advantage of pushing an ounce or a 1 1/8 ounce load from a 16 rather than a 20 is a little ballistics-challenged. And the 1 1/4 ounce loads, I believe, are for 12 ga. guns. You can only throw much shot through a pipe of a given diameter before you get deformation and stringing past the point of positive return.

And to hades with the 3" 20 ga. I've never liked the results on the far end of the shot and absolutely loathe the results at the shoulder & cheek end. The little bugger's a savage.

I doubt most of the gunning press has any selfish motive in seeing the 16 disappear. We know Larry certainly doesn't. And, you know, sometimes even very fine writers and shotgunners are just wrong. Gene Hill in "Shotgunner's Notebook" and Michael McIntosh in "Shotguns and Shooting," despite liking the 16 ga., pretty much write it off as about to disappear ... and, if anything, it's come back a bit. All those boys, Mr. Roster included, are entitled to their opinion. And, I have to say, I doubt a single stroke of Mr. Roster's pen will have that much impact on manufacturers' decisions.

Although I love to read, I take all writers with a grain of salt. They have their ink and paper, and I have my gray matter to evaluate what they have to say. It's sort of what makes the whole exercise worthwhile, eh?
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XVIgauge
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:59 am  Reply with quote
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Mike,
I think that we have a slight confusion in terms. "Market share" is your term and gaining in popularity is my term. Using your definition, you are correct and I will agree w/ you. The 16 does not have a current "market share." However, using my term, I would have to say that the 16 is definitely gaining in popularity slight as though it might be. Just the fact that Roster addresses it at all shows this. If the 16 were dead, why even bring it up? I teach mentally challenged high school students. We have to be able to measure "learning gains." Sometimes the gains are so slight as to be almost non existant, but they are there. We just have to use the correct assessment tool.
You misquoted me in saying "If the demand were as high as you are saying it is..." Read over what I said. I never said that the demands were high. I did say that the 16 is becoming more popular. And it is more popular than it was a few years ago. If not, even this forum and web site would not exist.
No, the 16 will probably never be what it was in its heyday and it will probably never die out completely, but, I hate to see any negatives about it in print. Let's face it, anyone who subscribes to the Shooting Sportsman is most likely a dedicated upland bird hunter who appreciates the feel and fine lines of a classic side by side, no matter what gauge (even though most would agree that the 16 is the "queen of the uplands: as McIntosh would say), and I doubt if many (or any) neophytes will ever even see the article. But, I do think that manufactures will see it and though one article will not sway them, it does add ammunition to back up their their noncompliant attitudes. Many on this forum are busy contacting manufactureers requesting more 16 gauge ammo, components, and 16 guns on 16 frames. Look at the work of 16gaugeguy. His continued efforts finally had an impact on Remington in producing more wads. The manufacturers do listen to both sides. So, let's stop bickering and stop this fencing w/ words as this will not accomplish anything. Please read the article and then decide.
MFG: you are correct in that a writer has the right to his opinion, however, his opinion was stated as fact and I believe he has his facts wrong. You are correct in that demanding a retraction is wrong (I suppose I was a little emotional at the time), but as you say, a rebutal might not be too much to ask.
I think I have stated my stand on the issue and I will not address it anymore on this thread (unless someone misquotes me of course.)
XVI

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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:09 am  Reply with quote
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Please see the 'You only 16 owner at your clay range too?' thread.
We CHOOSE to use a 16 rather than a 20 or 28 for skeet and rather than a 1 oz 12 for trap or sporting BECAUSE IT'S FUN AND WE WANT TO.
There's no better upland gun than a 6-6 1/2# 16g with 1 oz shot BUT it's not BETTER than the classic British 12g. game gun weighing the same and with the same shot load. And it's not a BETTER quail gun than a 20 with 7/8 oz shot. And it's not BETTER for big wild late season pheasants than a Benelli SBE shooting 1 1/4 oz of 4s. If I could have only one gun (gasp Shocked) for everything, clays and game, it would be a 12 Embarassed (Oh the shame)
We really are sorta kooks (Hey-Bro. Larry started it!) who are a little oppositional (see all the posts by fellas who enjoy beating the trap and skeet guys with their 16s) and we know the 16 will always be primarily a hunter's gun and gauge. Let's keep spreading the word about how much FUN we're having and keep working on the gun and ammo makers to meet our needs/desires and make some $ in the process. The 'sorta' free market is frustrating but it's the best we have (see the 'Remington sticks us again' thread)
Thanks again to the 'founding fathers' for a forum that promotes that which gives us such joy. Very Happy
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:46 pm  Reply with quote
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There's a thread on the SS BB about that article, with comments from a lot of 16ga shooters. The 16ga is pretty much an acquired taste, sort of like dry wine--you start out drinking Mogen David until you taste the good stuff and find out what you've been missing. And most of the people commenting on that thread also feel Roster is wrong, for one reason or another.

That being said . . . I only know Roster second hand. He's done a lot of good ballistics stuff, especially in the nontox and waterfowl shooting areas. However, he also has the reputation of being pretty darned opinionated, and since he's given his "definitive" position, about all you're likely to achieve with a letter to the editor is a defensive reply from Roster.

Quite a few 16's have been reviewed in SSM over the years, and Vic Venters even did a nice article on the gauge a few years back. He asked for comments from 16ga owners on who had owned what and how many. (He mentioned what I told him, but said he wouldn't include the number of 16's I've owned because it would have skewed his results!) But because of the nature of the 16 and the people who shoot them (virtually all of us have tried the other, "common" gauges and have decided we like 16's in spite of the difficulties presented--like limited ammo selection), I can't imagine Roster's comments will have much impact.

I'd say Roster's column is but a minor storm, and the best thing to do is let it pass. It isn't going to influence gun or ammo makers one way or the other. The new CZ 16's are about to appear, more 16ga Citoris are going to be made, Galazan is importing 16ga barrels for the Parker Repro--and selling them as fast as he gets them. In spite of all that, however, the 16ga is and will remain pretty much of a niche, upland hunting gun. I think we'd all like to see a better 16ga hull, like the STS, but I doubt we ever will. That's life as a 16ga shooter.
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16ga.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:10 pm  Reply with quote
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03apr06

I received my copy of SSM late last week upon returning home from work. I thought ‘great,’ I’ll just curl up in my chair and skim through the magazine. I didn’t get very far before 16ga. caught my eye and I read Tom Roster’s ‘definitive position’ in the ‘Shot Talk’ regular feature. Initially I was angry, but a few days have passed and Larry Brown’s post have cooled me off a bit.

Still, I have some left over disappointment. I would have hoped that a writer occupying an editorial position in SSM would be more inclined to leadership rather than maintain the some fuzzy notion of the status quo: more shot and bigger shells. Much of this status quo has been written about over the years in the same magazine as incorrect. He states that the 3” 20 ga. shell comes in “more shot types, shot sizes and load weights than the 2 3/4” 16ga.” Does he maintain that these 3” 20’s are ballistically superior to the same load in a 2 3/4 16ga? I hope not.

I wondered where he was going with the reloading point. There’s a factory load available in 16ga for virtually every Upland and Waterfowl gamebird. They are much discussed on this forum and listed on this website. The people that reload are most often savvy, veteran shooters who are seeking ‘custom’ loads carefully tailored to both their gun and the gamebird. Whether it is for an edge in the field or simply to make a load that is safer for their gun than modern ammunition, reloading is an attractive proposition regardless of the gauge of the gun. My position is that most 16ga. shooters also come from that savvy and veteran group.

Finally, it appears to me, after a couple of readings, that the column is basically just filling space in the magazine. There doesn’t appear to be much homework done here. A couple of hours browsing our GunTalk Forum would produce a better assessment of 16ga. shooting than Mr. Roster’s effort. Lazy journalism will eventually hurt his creditability more than the 16ga. in hearts of savvy sportsmen. It just means our grassroots revival will take a little longer.

I’m with Larry… this too will pass. Maybe now I can finish the magazine.

--Doug Oliver, for the 16ga. Society
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Brian Meckler
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:04 pm  Reply with quote



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Some years ago when I still posted on the SSM bbs I saw a trend leaning toward the 16 gauge. Larry Brown and a couple others used to champion the forgotten gauge and it often caused a donnybrook. I listened and tried the 16 gauge much because of Larry Brown. In those days 16 gauge shooters often got blasted by the light 12 and 20 gauge crowed.

Times have changed, now if one badmouths a 16 gauge the poster had better be ready for some fall-out. I remember a few years ago Terry Wieland wrote an article that blasted the 16 gauge for Grey's Sporting Journal. He told me that he received more hate mail from that article than Hillary Clinton at a NRA meeting.

The 16 has a major cult following and I am a proud member.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:45 am  Reply with quote
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Brian, I sincerely apologize for getting you into this mess.Smile

Now if I could only get a royalty--even a modest one--from all the new 16's sold, I'd be living a lifestyle to which I'd like to become accustomed.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:57 am  Reply with quote
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Let me put it in American slang short hand--Roster is and has been a "self important jerk" for quite a while in my opinion. I also know that some (but not all) professional jurnalists feel the weight of the media and advertizing dollar via their editors and the publishing house they frequently write for. If they do not comply with certain pressures, they become persona non grata. The easiest way to eliminate the horse manure is to pan the rag he wrote the article in as not worth reading.

There has been financial pressure from the domestic supply side to downplay and disparage the 16 for decades. It is mainly an upland ga that is far to versitile for is own good in the opinion of some commercially oriented minds. It doesn't take a genious to recognize that if a 28 ga is good with 3/4 oz. of shot, a 20 will do it better, and a 16 even more so. Yet, the 28 and 20, even the 3" 20, can't hope to match the ballistic advantages of a 16. Now introduce a nicely balanced 16 ga. of reasonably comfortable and comparable weight with good handling and shooting characteristics ( like the 16 Citori), and you have a definate threat to both the other two popular upland gauges. Such a gun ican be good for a gun making company, but bad for an ammo manufacturer at first.

Don't forget here, Remington and Winchester both make the vast majority of their revenues from ammo sales. The guns are just vehicles to shoot the product and are a secondary matter that often lose revenue. When Olin sold Winchester Repeating Arms, they kept the more profitable ammo business. Remington has continually retained its ammo line, but paid dearly for it to Dupont.

Remington has dominated the domestic target shotshell ammo market now for over 10 years. This has also helped them hold a huge share of the hunting ammo line too. Yet, Remington has not tried to introduce a decent trap, skeet, or sporting clays gun now for well over 5 years. Their hunting guns have been losing market share and money now for years. You might see the gun line sold off soon to overeseas interests. This is also primarily why Remington will not introduce a scaled down 16 ga. repeater. They figure it will be a loser and will hurt the 20 and 28 ga ammo sales too.

Remington and Winchester are two huge sources of gun and ammo mag advertizing dollars. Publishers feel the weight and comply. Who knows how much pressure Roster has been quietly subjected to by his publisher/editor staff. He has to eat too.

We 16 ga fans are a very knowledgable, and competant bunch. Make no mistake. We now also have nationally felt clout. Our collective clout has been felt more in the last year than at any time in the past three decades due to this web site. It has been a both a collection and focusing point for that clout. Federal, Fiocchi, Gualaundi, P&B, and Cheddite have felt it as well as Remington and even Winchester. The wad producers have been set to buzzing and are seriously thinking about new domestic 16 ga wads. Browning, Beretta, CZ, and other gun makers have felt the clout and are responding. We are winning. Roster's article is nothing but a tick on the ass of our momentum. Don't sweat it. His attempt to undercut our "big mo' is too little, too late. Just ignore him. That will hurt him more than any demand for retraction or public rebuke could ever do. The worst thing for him is no publicity. The way to get to his bosses is to pan the magazine as a backwards moving, reactionary, irrelevent rag that's not worth reading anymore to anyone who might listen. Believe me, Remington and wWinchester will notice the fallout indirectly. Just calm down and keep the faith. we will get her done, bet on it. 16GG.
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:07 am  Reply with quote
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I don't pay much attention to the techie stuff, but after all the hubub I had to read Roster's column. I have to admit I don't see what all the fuss is about. He kicks around a few hackneyed debates (including mentioning the 3" 20ga shell which nearly everyone admits is an abomination), but when you boil it all down, what he basically says is that there are more factory loads and reloading supplies available for 12's than for 16's. We know that; who cares? Question

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