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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Concerning Weights & Measures.....
dannypratt
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:12 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005
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Location: Napoleon, MI

Hello there folks,

Weel, I can hold my tongue no longer, however, I know I'm opening one really big can of industrial sized worms, but here goes.
I have read several posts regarding the 7lb. CZ / Huglu / ArmsCo 16 gauge guns out there, along with mentions of other brands of doubles, I believe even a Model 21 Winchester some time ago, that run in the light 7 lb. category. Along with moans and groans of 7 lbs as too much weight and poor swing / point-a-bility, some have voiced an interest in a bit more weight for the old 16 double, as less than 6.5-6 lbs is too light for swing / point-a-bility. Well, I have also gathered information from right here on this post about the wonders of the Browning Citori 16 in the 28" barrel model, and how most should look no further than Browning for a good light, quick handling, everlasting 16 double. Well, I am a Browning man, so I won't deny that I do tend to always lean Browning-first in life. So here comes my point, hold on and don't blow a circuit, this is only meant to turn wheels, not blow out crankshafts.
A Browning Citori in 20 ga ( I know, not 16) w/ 28" barrells, with nice wood, busts the the ever loving 6-6.5 lb. scale right off the bat. Now keep in mind this is a 20, not 16. I am not talking the superlight models, I am talking the Lightning models only here guys. I owned a 20 ga w/ 28" barrels from Browning and it weighed in at just barely under 7lbs. Handled well, had beautiful wood, killed alot of grouse and pheasants with it too. I 've got a 20 ga. BSS now with 26" barrels, lighter than the Citori, well, feels that way due to balance, still clocking in at about the same weight, maybe a little under the Citori. So here's my point, we've got guys on this board that love the 16 gauge Citori for it's weight, which unless a Superlight, will never, I mean never, be 6 lbs. There is no way on earth, not when a 20 ga. listed weight is 6.5 lbs. Now I'm no rocket scientist, but I've yet to determine how to make barrels and frames larger with less steel than smaller barrels and frames use. I just can't figure it out, so here's my main pint of the post : unless your going to pay top dollar for a Merkel, or if your going to find a real gem from a bygone era, or pay big bucks for something else besides a Merkel ( Kimber comes to mind ) your not going to get a 16 double gun that weighs less than 6.75-7lbs. So when somebody says, that CZ weighs in a 7 lbs, I'm not happy, and that's too heavy, so I'll buy a Citori, then they are fooling themselves completely. The Citori may balance better with 26" barrels then with 28" barrels, that's a no brainer and the same goes w/ the CZ or Model 21 or whichever. But don't act like it's clunky because it's 7 lbs. My Jap. Sweet 16 Browning is 7lbs. and it feels like nothing at all.
I'm not telling anyone what to buy, if you don't like it don't buy it, but hey, let's try to put some of this weight in perspective. By the way shoot a light weight ( 6.5lbs and under ) 16 double all day on trap and you won't be too happy. Or even a model 37 for trap. Wow, I love that gun, but holy pigeon dust, my shoulder!
-danny
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CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:21 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Dec 2005
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My Citori Lightning Feather 16 weighs in right at 6 lbs. This is not the superlight but rather a lightning model with a lightweight alloy receiver. I also have a standard 20 ga. Citori with a steel receiver but I have never weighed it. You're right on about a 6- 61/2 lb. gun on the skeet field, although, they're not bad with a good 3/4 oz. handload. They are fantastic field guns.

Matt
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dannypratt
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:18 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005
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Hey ther CF16,
Yes you are right, nice light guns are SWEET for the field, I will never argue that point. My post was mainly regarding the standard Lightning field models when I refer to the Citori's. Again, i've never felt the standard Citori was too heavy at all, I feel like 7lbs is fine, AS LONG AS ITS BALANCED WELL. Ok, good luck out there with the clay birds and feather kind as well.
-danny
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Foursquare
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:29 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl

Since the weight subject has appeared I thought I'd share this collection of useless data. These are all 16s, weights taken on a very accurate electronic scale.

AyA No2 27" 6.53
Brng Cit GL 28" 7.00
Brng FN A5 25.5" 6.84 6.72 (2 samples)
FAIR LX400 28" 6.25 6.26 "
Ithaca 37 FL 28" 6.33
Rem 870(1956) 28" 6.63
Rem Sp58 26"Cutts 7.86
Fox Sterlingworth 26" 6.16
WC Scott BLNE 28" 6.08
Ugartechae BLNE 28" 6.44
Win M12 26" 6.36

I won't even try to discuss felt recoil - too subjective. Except to say I think gun fit is more important than weight.
Pete
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Rabbitdog
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:34 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Location: Manhattan, Kansas

I have to agree with Foursquare. Fit has as much to do with felt or
preceived recoil as anything. I reload and shoot a lot of heavy rifle calibers
with a group of dedicated load developers at our club. It is not unusual to see a shooter change stocks or stock designs, or even rifles but keep the same caliber to reduce "felt" recoil. Certainly weight of the gun plays a part.
Sir Isac Newton hit the nail on the head when he described " Equal and Opposite Reaction". Resistance to that opposite reaction is taken up in part by the weight. Many other factors including angle of the but stock/shooter relationship. Physical build of the shooter. Of course load strength. And equally important is the shooters own tolorance, mental and physical, for being punched around.
As a side note, I just became the proud owner of a new Charles Daly
Field Hunter II, O/U , 16 ga. Made in Italy. It has 26 inch barrels and is built on a 20 ga. frame. Wood is beautiful dark walnut with high gloss
finish. Overall fit and finish is far better than I expected for a $1,000
shotgun. It weighs ( on two different digital scales) 6.75 lbs. I shot 150 rounds through it at the trap range last weekend ( 1oz. 2.5 grm equil. loads). It didn't " Seem " to kick any harder than my 8lb. 12ga. trap gun.
It does fit me really well and that was reflected in my scores. LOP is 13.75"which is just right for me. I can't wait to carry it along after pheasants next fall.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

I guess I just don't get all the hoop-la about "gun weight" and "16 ga. on a 20 ga. frame" and condemnations on 16 ga. guns of 6.75 or 7 lbs. I have a 20 ga. 28" model 12 solid-rib that wieghs more than some of the ideal weights I see tossed around on the forum here; I can carry it all day and I can produce witnesses who will testify it will kill wild roosters like a hammer from hell.....I have a Merkel 1620 and I love it, but it's only about 6 1/4 lbs. and frankly, though it fits like a glove and is a wonderful wild bird gun, it hurts to shoot that gun at skeet if I shoot more than 2 rounds at a time---and that's with the lighter 1 oz. reloads of Green Dot.

I would certainly agree that from a "style" standpoint, the 16 ga. 1620 on a 20 ga. frame is much more stylish and "racy" than my Model 12 16 ga.----but for $3,000 more, it OUGHT to be. I've shot both guns a lot, and I can't shoot better with one compared to the other.

I think it depends on what you want to use the piece for, how much carrying vs. shooting, how does it fit, and what is the physical stature of the shooter.
I'll guarantee you that if i were going to own only one 16 ga. to use for everything, I'd sure want it to weigh more than 6 lbs.....I don't enjoy self-inflicted beatings....

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MGF
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:25 am  Reply with quote
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Hell, I think everyone should shoot what they like and lust for whatever they think works for them.

Call me a girly man if you need to, but I'm a big guy and I still like my field 0/U guns to come in right around 6.5 pounds and have 28" tubes. To me they feel sweet, fast and graceful. It's just a preference.

Another field-gun preference: I like (but don't often enough find) shotguns with a fairly slim wrist ... it happens that my hands are wide but my fingers aren't long. So, I tend to prefer a straight-hand or PoW grip.

So, my field guns right now are a Ruger Red Label in 28 (OK, it's a little lighter than 6.5 ), a Sig/B.Riz in 20 and a 686 Beretta Ultralight in 12. They're what experience (and too many dollars burned along the way) have brought me to so far, and I darn well intend to die owning all three of 'em. And I'm really hoping my still-too-arrive Model 900 F.A.I.R fits into that group nicely.

Everybody's got opinions on what's perfect in a gun, including weight. And, heck, I thought some guys in one thread were being nearly rude to shooters who prefer not to carry a 7 lb. gun. I laughed at 'em and gave my screen "the raspberries." I'm 6' 0", 250 and can still bench press my weight and walk all day. Big whoop.

I think looking for the "ideal" field gun is like keeping an eye out for the "ideal" woman ... everyone's "ideal" is different. Me, I like 'em sleek but a little rounded, saucy and exciting but sensible when the chips are down.
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budrichard
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:53 am  Reply with quote
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Field guns and target guns are totally different interms of weight. I certainly would not shoot a filed gun for a round of clays.

Current mass produced doubles for feild use are HEAVY for thier gauge compared to doubles of the past. I believe this is due to cost of manufacturing and liability.

I have an Ohuas digital scale with 2kg cal weight so i know my measurements are accurate.

1938 Win 21 Skeet, 26" 16 gauge 6# 12.4oz.
1941 Ithaca M37 16 gauge, 28" 6# 5.7oz
Bruchet/Darne 16 gauge 65cm, 6# 0.4oz

My 20 gauge Darne, 65cm weighs 5# 10.8oz.
My 12 gauge Darne, 65cm weighs 6# 3.5oz

Browning Superposed Super Light in 12 gauge, I have two that weigh in at 6# 8.xoz.

1939 2" 12 gauge British boxlock at 5# 10oz.

The only way current manufacturers achieve those weights is with aluminum.
Todays mass produced doubles are heavy for thier gauge, period. -Dick
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

You're right, budrichard---and that's ok with me that they are. Light is as light does.....

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:23 am  Reply with quote
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I think I've mentioned numerous times that 6 -1/2 lbs is about the lightest weight I can handle well and still hit consistantly with, but that is just and only me. I have weighed all my 16 gauge guns out of curiosity more than anything. I used the federally certified lbs/grams lab scale at work. They are:

1. 1989 Citori 26"--6.51 lbs

2. 1987 and 1988 28" Citori (weight and balance matched)--6.73 lbs.

3. 1994 GR.III 26" Citori 6.59 lbs.

4. 2001 Citori 131 series--6.53 lbs.

5. Ithaca 37 Roto forged series (mid-70's?) w/28" ribbed bl.--6.60 lbs.

6. AyA Matador 28"-- 6.78 lbs

7. Beretta 409 series SxS 1971 26"--6.63lbs.

Every one of these guns is under 7 pounds and over 6-1/2. They all handle very well, but the ones with the longer tubes swing a might smoother on crossing shots for me. The AyA, the Ithaca, and the 28" citori models all track like they were on ball bearings. I must concentrate a tad on following through with the guns with shorter tubed barrels, but they start a bit quicker.

None of them kick hard with 3/4 oz. loads. The Citori and AyA guns kick the least with 1 oz loads. The Beretta will bring tears to your eyes with stiff 1 oz. loads. I think the chromed bores have an effect here. I intend to roto polish them with #OOOO steel wool and Semi-Chrome to see it it helps. The Ithaca is somewhere in the middle.

I realize that each of us shoots best what works for him or her. If it takes a 7 lb plus gun to help you, then that is the gun for you. IF only a 5 lb gun suits, then by all means, get one. However, don't be too quick to turn one's nose up at the other guy's gun because its too light, too heavy, too old, too new, or too inexpensive for your taste. Its how well the guy shoots it that means anything in the long run. That is primarily what guns are meant for.

I can't tell you the amount of times I've seen some self important, over opinionated yahoo big mouthed gun snob get his ass reamed on the skeet or trap field, or out bird shooting by the guy with the plain jane buck- three- eighty gun. The snob almost never fails to sniff and saunter off to polish his gun and sulk. Its a pleasure to watch everytime. Laughing It is hardly ever the arrow, its the indian what's shooting that matters. Some indians just shoot better than others. A wise indian uses the arrow that shoots best for him, lets his shooting do the talking, and says almost nothing with his pie hole until the shooting is done except "PULL!". Wink Laughing.
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MGF
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:21 am  Reply with quote
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Indeedy to what 16gg said.

While a whole lot of guys on the skeet field are absolutely fine gunners and great company, there's usually one of those puds hanging around. One or two times, I've been fortunate enough to be the low-gun, know-nothing rube with the field gun who cleaned the dude's clock.

It's great fun to get coffee in the clubhouse afterward and try to hide your smile as the dude's behavior just goes further south.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:54 am  Reply with quote
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...and boy does it taste sweet...er, the coffee that is. Its not polite to gloat. so sometimes I'm forced to eat half a donut, then use the other half to cover up the big stupid grin on my mug. Laughing
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MGF
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:54 am  Reply with quote
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Ain't it the truth. Very Happy

Fact is, good guys are good guys and good gunners are good gunners and the ones who are the most fun to shoot and hunt with are both. I get the sense there's quite of few of that combo on this board.

Let's face it ... we choose (or in my case, still seek) a gun in a gauge that most consider unnnecessary. And most of us are always looking for "the one" that brings that gleam to the eye.

We're contrarians, unable or unwilling to accept the conventional wisdom. And without a sense of humor, we'd go bonkers!
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revdocdrew
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:11 pm  Reply with quote
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Well said MGF-it's that oppositional-defiance thing that Woodcock is always talking about. Somebody tells us it can't be done the way we're doing it and we just can't help but show em' up. BUT it seems most of us do it with good humor and a smile Very Happy (hard for the lab guys to be in good humor tho' when their pup just puked up a carp Wink )
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Hey Rev, so thats what we is!! I thought maybe we was all just a little nuts!! Laughing Anyway, Happy Easter to all.
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