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Dave Miles
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Okay Guys, It's kinda hard to get an accurate I.D. because the hull moves.
The hulls wall thickness is definitly .030"
The hulls O.D. at the base just above the brass is .720"
So if you subtract .060" from this (double the wall thickness) that would give you an I.D. of .660"
The Remington R-16 wad is .635" O.D.
Which gives you a good .025" clearance between the wad and hull.
Hope this helps.
Dave M.
I measured the wall thickness on some other hulls.
16 gauge purple Fed. Hull .032"
16 gauge red win. super x .032"
16 gauge ARMUSA cheddite .035"
16 gauge black rem. game load .042"
12 gauge win. AA .040"

I cut the crimps off the hulls before mesuring.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:05 am  Reply with quote
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Actually, the clearance should be about half of the difference or .0125". Any bulky flake or disc powder will eliminate powder migration. Thee are a number of reasons we get bloopers. These plastic wads will obturate at least 5 times that clearance and seal the powder gases behind the skirt.

Maybe the wad is following the ram back out of the shell on the upstroke. A 20 ga ram would fix this problem so you could get a good firm wad seat on the powder.

Or, you need a bit more powder to increase your burning rate. These are very roomy shells. One half grain might do the trick and not raise pressures much. Too slow a powder for low pressure loads can cause this problem, or using a ball powder which needs a faster pressure curve to burn correctly. This is why most ball powders are not that suitable for low pressure loads. They need pressures above 9000 psi to ignite and burn fully. Double base flake powders like the Alliant line are best here.

You might also be getting a lighter than indicated powder drop or an inconsistant one. I'd check at least 10 drops on a scale and average them. If you are getting a varience of more than 2 tenthes plus or minus, then that also could be the problem. A 4 tenths grain swing will cause a blooper if you are already at the low side of the pressure range for the powder you are using. If such is the case, then using a more consistant pistol powder measure instead of the shot shell press powder drop would help. I often use a pistol powder measure for max pressure hunting loads for the same reason, better consistancy and a safer load.

I'd also check your actual drop weight. Could be you are dealing with an undersized bushing.
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Bronco
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:37 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: NW Florida

Sparky, If your hulls are 2.5in, let me know if you want to sell some or all. Bob
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Dave Miles
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:11 am  Reply with quote
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16gg. These are the loads I tried. Each load was measured on my scale, because they were sent to Tom for testing. They all bloopered because of powder migration.
R-16 wads, 1oz shot, 1 - .030" overshot card, and roll crimped.
#1 has 19.5 grains IMR 7625
#2 has 22 grains IMR 7625
I have since resent them using a 15 gauge nitro card under the wad to prevent migration. No results yet. It's just to slow to have to add the nitro card. When I get a couple good loads that I'm happy with, I'll go through 200 to 500 rounds a week shooting. I have also submitted 3 other loads using the SG-16 wad, but have not got results back for those either.
Dave
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:52 am  Reply with quote
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Dave, 7625 IMR is a single base powder. However, that is about all I know about it. You'd have to compare it to say, Unique, Herco, or Green Dot and tell me the relative size difference. If its a finer grained powder, then migration could be a factor. I can't say for sure though, not having handled 7625 IMR much.

I do know the SR line of powders tend to be finer grained than double based flake powders. They were originally developed for straight walled rifle and pistol cases, especially the older 44-40, 38-40 rounds. They have a much longer pressure curve too. Ignition and burn rate is not as consistant in the bigger shotshells either due to the greater bore size and resulting in a faster drop in peak pressure . Thats why they are not usually as popular as the double based powders. just because a powder has a slower or longer pressure curve, does not make it an ideal choice for shotshell applications.

Even Dupont/Remington loaded most of its shells with non-canister grades of Hercules powders or its own 700X which is basically, a refined double based powder that is very similar to Red Dot. Most of the 12 ga. STS line of 2-3/4 dram loads are based on non- canister Green Dot.

You might try looking for a more efficient powder. I'd suggest Unique or Herco for 1 ounce 16 ga. loads. Even the lighter charges down to 7800 PSI burn very consistantly. Under 1 ounce, try Green Dot or Unique. Both work very well.

PS: I just looked at the Alliant guide. It lists a 1 ounce load using the Fiocchi case, which is very similar to the Cheddite, a WW16 wad and 19 grains of Unique. Velocity is 1165 fps and pressure is 8100 psi. I'm willing to bet 19 grains and an R16 wad would produce 1125 FPS and about 7800 psi or thereabouts in a CHeddite case with no bloopers. 19.5 grains would bring it up to the WW16 wad performance. the load calls for a Fiocchi 616 primer which is hot. I'd try the new CCI 209. Performance should be about the same.


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dave Miles
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:19 am  Reply with quote
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16gg. SR7625 is a pretty fine powder. I was trying to go by some established loads from the 16 gauge reloading group, but only changing the wad. From the SP16 wad with a filler to the R-16 wad. I'll just hang tight and let the more experianced loaders come up with some loads using the R-16 wad. In the mean time I'll use the SG16 wad. I've been using PB powder for my 12 gauge low pressure reloads. This is a great powder.
All my 12 gauge are Damascus too. Laughing I do have some fluid steel barreled guns that my son shoots. And I just added a 10 gauge Damascus Parker to the lineup. Laughing Come on over to Michigan some time grouse hunting, and I'll let you shoot them. Wink
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sparky
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:17 pm  Reply with quote
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Broncho, Sorry the casesare BPI blue and green. They tyold me they wereCheddite. Saprky
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:00 am  Reply with quote
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Actually, there should be little to no difference in performance between an SP-16 wad with one 1/8 inch thick 28 ga card wad in the bottom of the cup and an R16 wad if you are loading 1 ounce of shot ans all other componants and the powder type and amount are thwe same. The R16 wad is for all practical purposes, identical in all ways but one to the SP16 wad. Its shot cup is 1/8 inch less deep.

My original purpose in pushing Remington to reintroduce the R16 wad was to make loading subgauge loads of less than 1 ounce easier. They excel here. Loading 3/4 and 7/8 ounce loads is as easy as tossing one or two 28 ga. card wads in the bottom of the cup as needed, then dropping the shot and crimping the shell as usual.

When Remington removed the R16 wad from the market as a componant over a decade ago, most folks simply used the SP-16 wad with one 28 ga wad for 1 oz loads. It has worked fine all this time. If all I wanted the R16 wad for was to load 1 ounce loads, I'd have not even bothered. The difference between them would not be worth the effort to get the R16 back. however, usng either the R16 or the SP-16 wad with more than 2 card wads is impractical and more time consuming.

Ideally, the answer to the problem of loading 7/8 or 3/4 ounce loads in the 16 gauge would be a 7/8 ounce wad, or one that splits the cup capacity at the half way point between these two shot charge weights. Then the wad could be used for either. Some smart fellow in one ofthe wad companies should pick up on this and offer one. They'd clean up on the 16 ga reloading market. A lot of lighter, more pleasant to shoot loads would be used in the 16 and the gauge would become even more popular. Of this, i have no doubt. I have made quite a few fans of the gauge by letting folks try my 3/4 ounce skeet loads on the range. It works nearly every time.

Actually, the Gualaundi 16 ga. wad comes darned close to doing this. However, it is not long enough as designed to fill a 2-3/4 inch 16 ga shell to a good crimp height. we still must resort to filler wads to obtain the shot column height needed. This puts too much shot above the cup in my opinion and causes pattern degradation. Also, its diameter is too fat for Remington cases which at this time, seem to be the most popular 16 ga cases to reload in of all the ones available at present.

If Gualaundi decided to make their present wad about one eigth of an inch longer and with .025-.030" less diameter, but with the same shot capacity, I'd drop the R16 like a hot potato and use them exclusively for 3/4 ounce loads. Then they could be loaded in any case available and would also serve well for 7/8 ounce loads too, all without the necessity of filler wads. However, I'm not counting on it or holding my breath.

the R16 has a better designed shot cup for 1 ounce loads than the gualaundi wad. Since Remington has still been producing the R16 wad for their own use, that was the most logical venue available. I was able to convince them it was practical and they sold us some. Now I can load light, easy shooting loads to my heart's content. I'll take what I can get, and not ask for "egg in my beer." 16GG.
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old16
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Dave M. wrote:
16gg. SR7625 is a pretty fine powder. I was trying to go by some established loads from the 16 gauge reloading group, but only changing the wad. From the SP16 wad with a filler to the R-16 wad. I'll just hang tight and let the more experianced loaders come up with some loads using the R-16 wad. In the mean time I'll use the SG16 wad. I've been using PB powder for my 12 gauge low pressure reloads. This is a great powder.
All my 12 gauge are Damascus too. Laughing I do have some fluid steel barreled guns that my son shoots. And I just added a 10 gauge Damascus Parker to the lineup. Laughing Come on over to Michigan some time grouse hunting, and I'll let you shoot them. Wink

Dave
Where abouts in Michigan would you be. I have a friend I used to go up to the UP every year for Grouse and Woodcock. I never hunted the lower part. I'm form Northern In. so Michigan is just a hop,skip, and a jump for me. Maybe we can get together on a bird hunt some weekend this fall. Bill

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Dave Miles
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 6:52 am  Reply with quote
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Bill, I sent you a PM

On another note, I was farting around with some loads this weekend, using the new red Cheddite hull. I was punching out the new primers and installing CCI 209, because I don't have a local source for Cheddite primers.
One thing I noticed, when I pushed out the stock primer, which didn't come out hard. The base metal of the shell would really cup out. It would go back flat when I installed the new primer, but man this metal must really be thin. No other hull does this when punching out the old primer. I'm a little worried about htese hulls now. Any thoughts?
Dave
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Roadkill
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:12 pm  Reply with quote
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Dave, I wouldn't worry about the base metal. I bought 3000 of the red Cheddites about 4 yrs ago from Graf's, and have loaded them a lot - some have been loaded 8-9 times. I've never seen any problem with the 'brass' and I examine every hull closely before restuffing it.
Bill
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:44 pm  Reply with quote
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I apologize if this has already been discussed and I missed it, but how do the Multi Hulls from Ballistic Products perform? They are Cheddites, correct? Are they as good as the ones from Grafs?
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RWG
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:24 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter wrote:
I apologize if this has already been discussed and I missed it, but how do the Multi Hulls from Ballistic Products perform? They are Cheddites, correct? Are they as good as the ones from Grafs?


Birdswatter:

BPI gets their hulls from a number of sources. Some who have ordered 16 ga. multi hulls from BPI have received cheddite hulls. Other got an Italian made hull of similar design. THe key distinguishing characteristic of the cheddite hull is a pattern of stars and the gauge number on the base of the brass circling the primer. Do you hulls have this feature? Russ
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:47 pm  Reply with quote
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Russ, Thanks. I haven't ordered any yet, wasn't sure if I should buy BP or Grafs.
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RWG
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Birdswatter wrote:
Russ, Thanks. I haven't ordered any yet, wasn't sure if I should buy BP or Grafs.


If you want cheddites, I would buy from Grafs. They are the importer. Order some Gualandi wads to go with those cheddite hulls. Russ
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